Uptown Dallas: The Carlisle on the Creek (~360 FT | 30 ST)

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zblevinz555
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Uptown Dallas: The Carlisle on the Creek (~360 FT | 30 ST)

Postby zblevinz555 » 18 Oct 2022 14:56

Is there a thread on this already? If so sorry for making a new one. But this is exciting. First time hearing about it. I’m assuming it’s new


Uptown Dallas tower project planned for Katy Trail block
Developer Lang Partners plans a mix of high-rise and row house apartments on Carlisle Street.
The Carlisle on the Creek development includes a residential high-rise plus row house units...
The Carlisle on the Creek development includes a residential high-rise plus row house units at Carlisle and Hall streets in Uptown Dallas.(Contributed / GFF )
By Steve Brown
1:30 PM on Oct 18, 2022
Developers who bought a block on Dallas’ Katy Trail have completed plans for the key property.

Lang Partners plans to construct a residential high-rises and row houses at Hall and Carlisle, street just east of Turtle Creek.

The Dallas apartment builder earlier this year bought two blocks of aging apartments at Hall and the Katy Trail.

After seven months of planning with Dallas architect GFF, Lang Partners is ready to reveal development plans for the property.

“We have been working on this quite a long time at this point,” said Lang Partners’ Dirik Oudt. “We got an awful lot of community feedback.

“It’s been really well received,” Oudt said. “The quality of this is going to be very high.”

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The Carlisle on the Creek development includes a residential high-rise plus row house units...
The Carlisle on the Creek development includes a residential high-rise plus row house units at Carlisle and Hall streets in Uptown Dallas.(Contributed / GFF )
Called Carlisle on the Creek, the planned development includes a luxury high-rise apartment building with close to 30 floors at the north end of the property. The entire development will total about 320 rental units.

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The street front surrounding the property would be lined with mostly three-story and four-story rental units.


“We have very artfully positioned the tower to be on the northeast corner of the site,” said GFF’s Evan Beattie. “It takes up 22% of the land area.

“Around the edges of the site on three of the four sides is lower,” Beattie said. “The tower shifts to the area where it has the least impact on the neighbors and is closer to the West Village.”

The lower levels of the apartment tower will be surfaced with limestone.

“The direction we received from the Lang Partners team was to focus on quality materials,” Beattie said. “We really feel like this will raise the bar for residential development in Dallas.”

Oudt said the apartment tower will set back 120 feet from the popular pedestrian Katy Trail.

“We created a lot of open space at the base of the trail,” he said. “We didn’t want to put buildings right on the trail.


“We wanted the design to be timeless and classic – something we call a 100-year building.”

The planned Uptown project will be Lang Partners’ most ambitious development to date.

Lang Partners has built rental communities in north Oak Cliff, in Dallas’ Medical District and in Fort Worth.


“This will be our first high-rise,” Oudt said.

Plans call for restaurant space on the ground floor oriented toward the Katy Trail.

“The Katy Trail has become Dallas’ oceanfront property,” Oudt said. “We’re creating a lot of open space at the base of the building near the trail.


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“There’s only one Katy Trail and we wanted to make sure we take advantage of that,” he said. “We plan on having some restaurants – we don’t know if it’s going to be one or two.”

Oudt said the project likely wouldn’t start until early 2024. The developer is seeking zoning for the high-rise and still refining plans for the property.

The Lang Partners project is one of a handful of new high-rises in the works along Turtle Creek.


Nearby at Turtle Creek Boulevard and Cedar Springs Road, a $750 million Four Seasons Hotel and condominiums are planned on a vacant block.

And on Turtle Creek near Fairmount Street, Houston-based Hanover Co and GID Investment Advisers LLC are building a $170 million, 21-story apartment tower.

A site next door to the Hanover location just sold to California-based Nexus Development Corp. which plans to build a 25-story residential tower.


One or two restaurants are planned near the Katy Trail at the Carlisle on the Creek...
One or two restaurants are planned near the Katy Trail at the Carlisle on the Creek development at Carlisle and Hall streets in Uptown Dallas.(Contributed / GFF )

LongonBigD
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby LongonBigD » 18 Oct 2022 16:19

Wow, figured something was coming eventually. This lot is directly across Hall street to the north of the Lincoln Katy Trail project (Angela Hunt govt giveaway charity).

Two sentences in the story give me reason for pause. Firstly, the proposed 30 story tower is the developers (Lang Partners) “first high rise.” Secondly, “The lower levels of the apartment tower will be surfaced with limestone.” Does that mean 26 stories of stucco? Really? In Uptown on the Katy. Will we ever learn? Hopefully I’m wrong.

Here are the renderings from the DMN story (I am a very visual learner-need pics).
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... ail-block/
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eburress
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby eburress » 18 Oct 2022 17:10

In the rendering the tower has the same material as the base, but who knows. This wouldn't be the first bait and switch we've seen.

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kingkong34
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby kingkong34 » 19 Oct 2022 13:38

Whats the address of this development?

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eburress
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby eburress » 19 Oct 2022 15:10

It's at the NW corner of Bowen and Carlisle, I believe, right along the Katy Trail. It's a big lot that's already been cleared.

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R1070
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby R1070 » 19 Oct 2022 15:50

This is across Hall Street from the cleared lot where the older apartments are.

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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 19 Oct 2022 19:55

Screen Shot 2022-10-19 at 7.48.16 PM.png
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eburress
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby eburress » 20 Oct 2022 09:51

Huh, so the lot I was referring to is immediately south of where The Carlisle on the Creek is going. It's a huge lot at Bowen and Carlisle they've cleared...so much room for activities!

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potatocoins
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby potatocoins » 20 Oct 2022 10:28

eburress wrote:Huh, so the lot I was referring to is immediately south of where The Carlisle on the Creek is going. It's a huge lot at Bowen and Carlisle they've cleared...so much room for activities!


Isn't that where the Lincoln Katy Trail project (Angela Hunt) is going? IIRC, it's going to be mid-rise apartments.

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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 20 Oct 2022 12:13

Yes, that's where the Lincoln Property project is going with much less height, but not really that different in the number of units.
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Cbdallas
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby Cbdallas » 20 Oct 2022 14:19

Sadly I could see loosing the tower on this one due to Oak Lawn Committee and Nimby's.

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R1070
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby R1070 » 20 Oct 2022 15:27

OLC. Sigh...

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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 20 Oct 2022 16:25

I mean, Lincoln got nowhere for years, and they were just building a short project that seemed decently scaled fine for the site, then all of a sudden, they sneaked everything by. I am sure this developer still has a chance cause the fight there seemed endless and all of a sudden, its been years mind you, we are clearing the site. Obviously, the claim to build a 100-year quality building is them trying to buy hearts by claiming they aren't building a cheap product so let us build but the fight has been about the price of affordability aka how many affordable units are you building? That they didn't address and that's what the Oak Lawn committee will argue over cause its what the OLC does they insist in affordable units to help balance the scales.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

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MrsKravitz
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby MrsKravitz » 20 Oct 2022 22:42

Apparently there was a meeting earlier this week regarding a proposed zoning change for the Lang “luxury residential property with restaurants at the ground level facing the Katy Trail”. Did anyone attend?

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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 21 Oct 2022 11:51

Meeting with who? Oak Lawn committee met on Oct 11th. Dates and links to agendas can be found here. https://www.oaklawncommittee.org/meetings

Well I see it now mentioned in the presentation from Oct 11th
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Dallas_Uptown
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby Dallas_Uptown » 27 Oct 2022 11:58

This site currently has condos immortalized on "Dallas" -- Cliff Barnes' apartment.

I wonder about the the demolition timeline.

(Likely awaiting approval.)

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R1070
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby R1070 » 27 Oct 2022 15:51

I thought these were old apartments...?

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dallaz
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby dallaz » 15 Nov 2022 19:11

Here’s the presentation from the OLC. It looks like the building’s height is 382 Ft. It look great to me. What do y’all think? Love the way page 18 shows all the other towers planned or u/c would look like (not detailed) with the proposed tower.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R9b4Mu ... drive_open

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R1070
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby R1070 » 15 Nov 2022 19:17

Looks great to me!

LongonBigD
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby LongonBigD » 15 Nov 2022 20:13

This rendering shows what a waste the proposed Lincoln site is to the south. Katy Trail and Turtle Creek equal tower, not donuts. But on the bright side, great DT views for Carlisle on the Creek residents!
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eburress
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby eburress » 16 Nov 2022 10:56

I absolutely LOVE everything about this tower and I couldn't agree more about how underwhelming and/or disappointing the Lincoln project is.

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dallaz
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby dallaz » 16 Nov 2022 12:25

^^^Didn’t the area fight for lower density on that property? Didn't the area fight about the density on that site a few years back? I thought I read that in the DMN or something…

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Cbdallas
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby Cbdallas » 16 Nov 2022 13:59

The lincoln site seems like they could have captured so much more density and profit even going up just a few more floors. I don't get it surely that property was expensive to purchase.

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R1070
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby R1070 » 16 Nov 2022 14:56

Cbdallas wrote:The lincoln site seems like they could have captured so much more density and profit even going up just a few more floors. I don't get it surely that property was expensive to purchase.

OLC had a bone to pick with Lincoln and I think it became personally motivated. Other developments that are way worse for the neighborhood didn't have anywhere near the issues Lincoln had with them.

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thelivingworld
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby thelivingworld » 16 Nov 2022 18:40

There's something to be said about how high you can have a massive block of mostly undifferentiated apartments with zero stepbacks before it becomes imposing. A narrow treelined street with a continuous wall of residences, porches, and balconies can actually be quite pleasing like you're being enveloped in the safety and comfort of an interior room, beyond a certain height and distance and it can feel claustrophobic. That being said I think OLC was being a bunch of NIMBYs here and Lincoln ended up bypassing OLC after a denial and going straight to council where it passed rather easily. A sleek, modern tower stepbacked over a human-scale street front is another thing entirely. Also different building costs entirely. The Lincoln Katy Trail is just a rectangular box with a rectangular box cut out for the pool deck. It will likely still be expensive relatively speaking, but much cheaper than this and had rezoning not been dragged on for more than five years it would have been cheaper still. It's simple and functional with a cross-section of good location and provides needed housing. Perhaps OLC's real objection was that it was not high-end enough.

Vancouver is full of residential high-rises, but they aren't all built right next to each other. There will be a low-rise building in-between or they will build it on top of a low-rise building that stretches out on both sides that provides street-level retail or a different kind of housing type.

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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby ajderry2017 » 17 Nov 2022 00:43

LongonBigD wrote:This rendering shows what a waste the proposed Lincoln site is to the south. Katy Trail and Turtle Creek equal tower, not donuts. But on the bright side, great DT views for Carlisle on the Creek residents!


This Lincoln site is different from the Lincoln property with 3 towers planned on Cedar springs correct?

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kingkong34
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby kingkong34 » 17 Nov 2022 09:42

This site will have to move a lot of residents out before they could demolish anything. Similar to how the Hunt property did it. Wonder if they've started non-renewing leases yet.

LongonBigD
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby LongonBigD » 23 Dec 2022 15:47

This project was denied (again) by the OLC during the Dec 7 meeting.

It sure sounds like the people on the other side of Turtle Creek have grave concerns about the height variance requested (36' allowed vs 390' requested) and the continued loss of affordable apartments in the neighborhood. I read that to mean, "we will not allow our views to be impeded." Same old complaints (height, traffic, congestion, "unbearable" construction noise, etc.) Interestingly they specifically mentioned the Four Seasons and two other proposals near TC and Maple (on their side of the creek) which did not seem so problematic.

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R1070
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby R1070 » 23 Dec 2022 22:25

Sigh…

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Benjamin
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby Benjamin » 27 Dec 2022 10:04

Does anyone have good history on the OLC - its mandate, its purview, its ability to bind parties to its conclusions? I'd love to understand better how it works and what the genesis of the organization is. Why is this non-governmental body of citizens able to hamstring growth, investment, and density in the urban core of a top 10 city in the US?

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Cbdallas
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby Cbdallas » 27 Dec 2022 10:37

Benjamin wrote:Does anyone have good history on the OLC - its mandate, its purview, its ability to bind parties to its conclusions? I'd love to understand better how it works and what the genesis of the organization is. Why is this non-governmental body of citizens able to hamstring growth, investment, and density in the urban core of a top 10 city in the US?


Agreed they are hindering Dallas at this point while the northern suburbs take over. It is past time to stop this from happening and eliminate this body.

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R1070
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby R1070 » 27 Dec 2022 14:19

I see the point of why it was formed nearly 40 years ago, but Dallas has changed a lot since then. If we don’t allow more density, that growth will go somewhere else. We either evolve or get passed over.

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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby citygeek » 27 Dec 2022 15:46

OLC is simply more of Dallas' old school control of everything. Yes, these are the people who 'know' what's best for Oak Lawn's future--especially now that almost everything historic, architecturally-significant or a critical part of the fabric of the neighborhood they profess to be saving has been destroyed over the last 30 years. And as far as new projects going forward, I'm sure OLC will continue to be as frustrating as ever in their decisions.
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Benjamin
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby Benjamin » 29 Dec 2022 08:58

It's not unreasonable that citizens, especially those directly affected by new development, might have some voice in the new development process, but it can't be the case that these types of groups can be stymying growth and investment on their own. The growth will certainly go somewhere else, but more than that, an inability to densify just pushes up cost of living in the urban core that counteracts one of our appealing attributes relative to other large US metros. If the cost of living in Uptown Dallas is comparable to that of coastal metros, those fleeing cost of living in coastal metros for cost of living reasons will seek the Dallas suburbs at the expense of the Dallas city. Uptown and the Knox District are ripe for conversion of aged, older, less-dense housing stock into higher density housing to satisfy demand of new residents and a growing population. When groups such as this throw sand in the gears of that conversion process (or stop it altogether), they are doing more harm than good to the long-term health of Dallas. You look down McKinney or Cole from Knox toward Uptown...it really should be much more dense than it is.

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eburress
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby eburress » 29 Dec 2022 11:18

Frankly, I feel "citizens" are some of the last people who should have a say in the development process. "Citizens" generally don't know what they're talking about and tend to only care about their own interests, giving little to no consideration to bigger pictures, the overall region, etc. Design by committee never works and the same goes for development, city planning, etc.

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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby emmasensei » 29 Dec 2022 12:14

eburress wrote:Frankly, I feel "citizens" are some of the last people who should have a say in the development process. "Citizens" generally don't know what they're talking about and tend to only care about their own interests, giving little to no consideration to bigger pictures, the overall region, etc. Design by committee never works and the same goes for development, city planning, etc.


Yeah, unfortunately, I completely agree with this. The average person has NO education about zoning, planning, development, codes, architecture, parking minimums, street design, gentrification, preservation, pedestrian infrastructure...

And even if they're vaguely familiar with some of these concepts, it always ends with "but what about meeeeee?" Citizens on these committees make decisions purely on vibes. Not logic, evidence, or arguments from people with decades of experience/education. Vibes.

Just try explaining the really-very-simple concept of induced demand (in the context of, say, widening a road) to one of these DFW freaks piloting a 12-passenger white Lexus SUV everywhere. I may as well be talking about witchcraft.

(Can you tell I've been dealing with a lot of committee drama myself lately?)

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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby rono3849 » 29 Dec 2022 23:46

OLC needs to be dissolved. They shouldn't have the ability to stop reasonable urban development. The time has come for the city of Dallas to act like they're in the big leagues. Houston certainly wouldn't put the kabash on a tower that will put more real estate on the tax rolls. Most of the people blocking these developments are only interested in their own self-interests.

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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 02 Jan 2023 18:14

Last I checked the OLC had city planners, architects, developers, and other types of professionals on its decision-making board. Y'All say "citizens" like they all sit at home watching Wheel of Fortune 8 hrs a day and just turn down high rises. They have limits to what they can impede cause a board like this, just like the city has laws preventing what they can stop and can't. One of my city planning teachers was a member for a time, and we discussed many things they worked on with developers to make sure development doesn't just throw up random stuff without sidewalks and awareness to the larger area they are building in. I will give you that it's kind of a secret org that the city staff depends on for giving a project "preapproval" and should be more transparent and public-facing. They aren't all bad, though and I have agreed with many of their denials in the past as it has been proven you can be denied by them, and the city will still approve at City Council. The OLC approval isn't required it is suggested and leaned on by city staff and city council for understanding what the neighborhood wants aka the ones who actually show up to these meetings and share their voice. I wish more areas had similar but modified setups or community-based boards for measuring what developers could do to get more localized approval of projects.
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Dtown214
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby Dtown214 » 02 Jan 2023 23:02

I hope that they can get something built and get it going soon!

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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby LongonBigD » 11 Jan 2023 18:00

This proposal failed again at Oaklawn Committee meeting last night.

OLC stated, "the Lang project is such a significant departure from MF-2 that many of our members can’t offer support, stating that a height increase from 36’ to 390’ regardless of the percentage of the lot included in that height can’t be justified without more significant community givebacks.

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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby Matt777 » 11 Jan 2023 18:52

LongonBigD wrote:This proposal failed again at Oaklawn Committee meeting last night.

OLC stated, "the Lang project is such a significant departure from MF-2 that many of our members can’t offer support, stating that a height increase from 36’ to 390’ regardless of the percentage of the lot included in that height can’t be justified without more significant community givebacks.


Further proof OLC needs to have a house cleaning or be disbanded. They are rejecting everything high quality but dense, and salivating over the 136 oz soda pops they are going to buy at the new Uptown Quiktrip. The Quiktrip is almost done. It is embarrassing AF as expected. It will also no doubt soon be filled with loitering vagrants like most other large gas stations in our urban areas. But OLC loves it.

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R1070
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby R1070 » 11 Jan 2023 20:33

OLC let's low density fly through without requiring them to conform to any sense of urbanity and any height or density will create "too much trafic". Meanwhile the Starbucks and Total Wine on Oak Lawn Ave creates all kinds of traffic headaches daily. Such backward thinking.

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dzh
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby dzh » 12 Jan 2023 06:38

I don't think the Quiktrip ever got discussed in a meeting actually (I haven't been to a meeting in well over a year so please don't quote me on that, but I don't recall seeing the QT on the agenda documents). If I understand correctly, the gas station was built within the existing zoning requirements, so therefore they really didn't need to go to the OLC. You only really submit things to the OLC if you're trying to change existing zoning requirements.

I'm all for the OLC to start speaking out against the "bad" new developments however. The QT definitely has no business being built where it was.

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Benjamin
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby Benjamin » 13 Jan 2023 10:38

So OLC is going to kill this deal because they think it's too tall? "A height increase can't be justified"? On what grounds? Once again why does OLC get to have a say on the height of buildings in the urban core of Dallas? I too would like to offer or withhold support for this development based on my personal preferences. Maybe the developers should just solicit all of our opinions? But joking aside, this appears to be a great investment in the city and will be a travesty of OLC gets in the way.

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potatocoins
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby potatocoins » 13 Jan 2023 10:43

There seems to be a ton of fearmongering around the amount of traffic that new development will create. I've been around some of the NIMBYs in the area and traffic seems to be the biggest concern to me.

Makes no sense to me, it's like they don't understand what it means to live in a city. It feels like people who pushback on development move to a city and just want it to stay exactly the way it was when they moved there, but will welcome a new restaurant or new retail establishment. It's frustrating because they seem to take growth for granted, and don't take into account that city's can decline as well.

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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby citygeek » 13 Jan 2023 10:59

I am sick and tired of the OLC. Yes, they have done some things right over the years but as is noted above, these people are living in a city but they don't get what that actually means past their own selfish, self-interest--their's and a handful of other people's. Believe me, Oak Lawn was a hell of a lot nicer and cooler and more 'urban' twenty or 30 years ago than it is today. Quick Trips, car washes and drive-thru chain restaurants are fine with them but not serious, well-designed residential buildings (of any legitimate height) buildings that could actually maybe, maybe just maybe, bring more people and life to this classic Dallas neighborhood. For Christ's sakes OLC, Oak Lawn is NOT Highland Park light and you don't live in the real one. Get over it! Disband this antiquated and totally out-of-touch organization now.
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Cbdallas
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby Cbdallas » 13 Jan 2023 13:40

OLC keeping inner Dallas like Plano.

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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 18 Jan 2023 11:48

Again the OLC ONLY reviews stuff that goes against current zoning unless the developer just wants the OLC's blessing to make a PR move. ALL the things you guys keep blaming them for "approving" are approved by the city zoning on land around major arteries, aka Lemmon Ave, which carries traffic from far north Dallas to 75. If you are mad, try complaining to the City Council and Planning Commission, who actually sets the zoning in place. The OLC didn't approve the QuikTrip, nor did they really approve of the CVS on McKinney either. The Total Wine was an interesting move, and so was the Starbucks, but to be honest, the neighborhood wanted both of those and HATED the Aster apartment tower that was built by right since most changes offered to the OLC were rejected. The problem is not with the OLC guys. It's with people who own condos/townhomes and think traffic is their biggest concern. A Starbucks that backs u traffic onto Oak Lawn Ave all day or a high-rise apartment tower that sees distributed traffic all day and never backs up onto neighborhood streets, even during rush hour.
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Cbdallas
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby Cbdallas » 18 Jan 2023 14:36

Based on that angle the OLC has no reason to exist. Developers should be able to go start directly with the city to get approval and build and speed up the process instead of start at a committee and waste time trying to please them by lowering building heights and traffic concerns and what plants and trees to plant.

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R1070
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Re: The Carlisle on the Creek

Postby R1070 » 18 Jan 2023 15:17

Cbdallas wrote:Based on that angle the OLC has no reason to exist. Developers should be able to go start directly with the city to get approval and build and speed up the process instead of start at a committee and waste time trying to please them by lowering building heights and traffic concerns and what plants and trees to plant.

The only reason I could see OLC existing is to push developers to design their buildings in a more forward thinking way to increase urbanity and pedestrian friendly development in the area. Other than that, let the city handle it.