Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

I wonder if this was intended to represent a conceptual, Spire-like development built next door or if this was an older (or newer) version of their own development based around them having bought all of the Spire land. Given the consistency of architectural style, my guess is that one way or the other it's the latter.

The momentum appears to be moving forward in a positive direction for this development. This will be an impactful addition to Dallas' skyline.

Has a permit even been filed yet?

RodB wrote:Has a permit even been filed yet?

I haven’t been able to find anything.

Here is the office leasing site for this project. It seems to contradict some of the information in this thread. 1. The tallest building is 48 stories, not 50. 2. None of the office space appears to have been leased.

I’m starting to wonder about this project, for a number of reasons. No FAA filing? No state filing? No building permit filing? But most of all, Steve hasn’t done his semi-annual puff piece.

https://www.foundrycommercial.com/prope ... ross-.stml

Tucy wrote:Here is the office leasing site for this project. It seems to contradict some of the information in this thread. 1. The tallest building is 48 stories, not 50. 2. None of the office space appears to have been leased.

I’m starting to wonder about this project, for a number of reasons. No FAA filing? No state filing? No building permit filing? But most of all, Steve hasn’t done his semi-annual puff piece.

I will say, while I wouldn't be surprised to see this project get delayed because of the ongoing economic uncertainty and Dallas' permitting issues, Portman is an out-of-state developer that has a solid track record of delivering on their projects (unlike most proposals in Dallas).

So I'm not worried about this one.

Addison wrote:

Tucy wrote:Here is the office leasing site for this project. It seems to contradict some of the information in this thread. 1. The tallest building is 48 stories, not 50. 2. None of the office space appears to have been leased.

I’m starting to wonder about this project, for a number of reasons. No FAA filing? No state filing? No building permit filing? But most of all, Steve hasn’t done his semi-annual puff piece.

I will say, while I wouldn't be surprised to see this project get delayed because of the ongoing economic uncertainty and Dallas' permitting issues, Portman is an out-of-state developer that has a solid track record of delivering on their projects (unlike most proposals in Dallas).

So I'm not worried about this one.

Well, we can't blame the city for not issuing building permits for which the developer has not applied.

Tucy wrote:

Addison wrote:

Tucy wrote:Here is the office leasing site for this project. It seems to contradict some of the information in this thread. 1. The tallest building is 48 stories, not 50. 2. None of the office space appears to have been leased.

I’m starting to wonder about this project, for a number of reasons. No FAA filing? No state filing? No building permit filing? But most of all, Steve hasn’t done his semi-annual puff piece.

I will say, while I wouldn't be surprised to see this project get delayed because of the ongoing economic uncertainty and Dallas' permitting issues, Portman is an out-of-state developer that has a solid track record of delivering on their projects (unlike most proposals in Dallas).

So I'm not worried about this one.

Well, we can't blame the city for not issuing building permits for which the developer has not applied.

True. Was speaking hypothetically.

Addison wrote:

Tucy wrote:

Addison wrote:
I will say, while I wouldn't be surprised to see this project get delayed because of the ongoing economic uncertainty and Dallas' permitting issues, Portman is an out-of-state developer that has a solid track record of delivering on their projects (unlike most proposals in Dallas).

So I'm not worried about this one.

Well, we can't blame the city for not issuing building permits for which the developer has not applied.

True. Was speaking hypothetically.

Yes, I understand.

I know we're a unique group of folks that have seen some big disappointments in the development of Downtown Dallas, but I'm going to continue to think that this project has a better than 70% chance of making it out of the ground. The developer's detailed information & marketing of the project, plus their successful track-record outside of the Atlanta market give me a sense that these towers won't remain on the page as pretty renderings. I hope the city of Dallas planners don't do anything to scuttle this project. I think the Arts District and Eastern side of Downtown need to keep the momentum going.

I'll believe it when the crane base goes in.

How tall is that tallest tower again? Latest estimates?

Isn't Dtown Dallas losing office tenants left and right? Why would a developer put a tower (with an office component) in an area where they are losing tenants?

Are they leaving Downtown Dallas due to location, or is it just because they want shiny/new office space and that is easier to find in Uptown?

I'm not sure, but I guess if it is the ladder, then perhaps shiny/new office space in the CBD could do well.

kingkong34 wrote:Isn't Dtown Dallas losing office tenants left and right? Why would a developer put a tower (with an office component) in an area where they are losing tenants?

They probably won't, unless they get a substantial tenant signed on...

potatocoins wrote:Are they leaving Downtown Dallas due to location, or is it just because they want shiny/new office space and that is easier to find in Uptown?

I'm not sure, but I guess if it is the ladder, then perhaps shiny/new office space in the CBD could do well.

Comerica recently began moving a number of their employees to Frisco, while Builders FirstSource is leaving downtown entirely for Las Colinas.

The problem is that as long as the center of gravity for talent keeps shifting northward and westward (because of better commercial amenities, better schools and cheaper homes, etc.), it will get exponentially harder to sell them on a long commute downtown.

That said, apartment/townhome/condo developments could do quite well downtown if developers can get the math to work out (in terms of cost for construction and profitability) as the demand for that remains strong, and I'm pretty sure Portman's project does include a residential high rise as well.

Addison wrote:

potatocoins wrote:Are they leaving Downtown Dallas due to location, or is it just because they want shiny/new office space and that is easier to find in Uptown?

I'm not sure, but I guess if it is the ladder, then perhaps shiny/new office space in the CBD could do well.

Comerica recently began moving a number of their employees to Frisco, while Builders FirstSource is leaving downtown entirely for Las Colinas.

The problem is that as long as the center of gravity for talent keeps shifting northward and westward (because of better commercial amenities, better schools and cheaper homes), it will get exponentially harder to sell them on a long commute downtown.

Agreed. I guess I was more referring to the companies that have moved from Downtown to Uptown or just slightly outside of the CBD for something newer and shinier.

I'd really like to see Southern suburbs become more desirable, which should help pull some of the weight back downward, but I agree it is really hard to compete with suburbs up north.

potatocoins wrote:

Addison wrote:

potatocoins wrote:Are they leaving Downtown Dallas due to location, or is it just because they want shiny/new office space and that is easier to find in Uptown?

I'm not sure, but I guess if it is the ladder, then perhaps shiny/new office space in the CBD could do well.

Comerica recently began moving a number of their employees to Frisco, while Builders FirstSource is leaving downtown entirely for Las Colinas.

The problem is that as long as the center of gravity for talent keeps shifting northward and westward (because of better commercial amenities, better schools and cheaper homes), it will get exponentially harder to sell them on a long commute downtown.

Agreed. I guess I was more referring to the companies that have moved from Downtown to Uptown or just slightly outside of the CBD for something newer and shinier.

I'd really like to see Southern suburbs become more desirable, which should help pull some of the weight back downward, but I agree it is really hard to compete with suburbs up north.

Other than Neiman Marcus, what other big downtown tenants shifted (or is shifting) their offices from downtown to Uptown?

Addison wrote:

potatocoins wrote:Are they leaving Downtown Dallas due to location, or is it just because they want shiny/new office space and that is easier to find in Uptown?

I'm not sure, but I guess if it is the ladder, then perhaps shiny/new office space in the CBD could do well.

Comerica recently began moving a number of their employees to Frisco, while Builders FirstSource is leaving downtown entirely for Las Colinas.

The problem is that as long as the center of gravity for talent keeps shifting northward and westward (because of better commercial amenities, better schools and cheaper homes, etc.), it will get exponentially harder to sell them on a long commute downtown.

Not to mention Neiman Marcus. Neiman Marcus! moving their headquarters staff out of downtown.

I have no specific examples in mind. They could have been smaller relocations, or maybe I'm misremembering.

I thought I recall a company moving from the CBD to Cityplace, or perhaps McKinney & Olive nabbed a few companies from the CBD too. Again, I could be off on my recollection.

Addison wrote:

potatocoins wrote:

Addison wrote:
Comerica recently began moving a number of their employees to Frisco, while Builders FirstSource is leaving downtown entirely for Las Colinas.

The problem is that as long as the center of gravity for talent keeps shifting northward and westward (because of better commercial amenities, better schools and cheaper homes), it will get exponentially harder to sell them on a long commute downtown.

Agreed. I guess I was more referring to the companies that have moved from Downtown to Uptown or just slightly outside of the CBD for something newer and shinier.

I'd really like to see Southern suburbs become more desirable, which should help pull some of the weight back downward, but I agree it is really hard to compete with suburbs up north.

Other than Neiman Marcus, what other big downtown tenants shifted (or is shifting) their offices from downtown to Uptown?

Neiman Marcus's move is stretching the definition of Uptown a bit, isn't it?

But to answer your question, name a major tenant in most any Uptown building and chances are, they moved (or are moving/planning to move) from downtown:

Ernst & Young
Price Waterhouse Coopers
Gardere Wynne Sewell LLP
Akin Gump
Winston & Strawn
Haynes Boone
Winstead
Goldman Sachs

Tucy wrote:

Addison wrote:

potatocoins wrote:
Agreed. I guess I was more referring to the companies that have moved from Downtown to Uptown or just slightly outside of the CBD for something newer and shinier.

I'd really like to see Southern suburbs become more desirable, which should help pull some of the weight back downward, but I agree it is really hard to compete with suburbs up north.

Other than Neiman Marcus, what other big downtown tenants shifted (or is shifting) their offices from downtown to Uptown?

Neiman Marcus's move is stretching the definition of Uptown a bit, isn't it?

But to answer your question, name a major tenant in most any Uptown building and chances are, they moved (or are moving/planning to move) from downtown:

Ernst & Young
Price Waterhouse Coopers
Gardere Wynne Sewell LLP
Akin Gump
Winston & Strawn
Haynes Boone
Winstead
Goldman Sachs

Goldman Sachs is kind of a gray area. While the site is north of Woodall Rogers (putting it outside the technically defined area of downtown), it also technically sits outside of the area defined as Uptown as well. Plus, it's essentially adjacent to downtown and much more closely connected with it than Uptown.

So that one, I give a pass.

Other than maybe E&Y or PwC, I wouldn't have thought of those other companies as being large tenants, at least not large enough alone to help kickstart office tower projects.

FYI, I originally said companies moving to Uptown or just outside the CBD, and wasn't necessarily only referring to larger companies.

I'd like to believe this isn't due to location, but I think it just has more to do with the availability of newer office space. The reason I made the comment is maybe it's possible that the CBD can support more office if they had something new/shiny to offer like this particular development.

Addison wrote:

Tucy wrote:

Addison wrote:
Other than Neiman Marcus, what other big downtown tenants shifted (or is shifting) their offices from downtown to Uptown?

Neiman Marcus's move is stretching the definition of Uptown a bit, isn't it?

But to answer your question, name a major tenant in most any Uptown building and chances are, they moved (or are moving/planning to move) from downtown:

Ernst & Young
Price Waterhouse Coopers
Gardere Wynne Sewell LLP
Akin Gump
Winston & Strawn
Haynes Boone
Winstead
Goldman Sachs

Goldman Sachs is kind of a gray area. While the site is north of Woodall Rogers (putting it outside the technically defined area of downtown), it also technically sits outside of the area defined as Uptown as well. Plus, it's essentially adjacent to downtown and much more closely connected with it than Uptown.

So that one, I give a pass.

Other than maybe E&Y or PwC, I wouldn't have thought of those other companies as being large tenants, at least not large enough alone to help kickstart office tower projects.

That's an odd take regarding the Goldman Sachs site, especially considering how Hunt has described the project, but whatever -- "Our stated goal is to create a green heart to Uptown,” Fitzgibbons said. “What we have essentially planned the project around is a 1.5-acre park.” "Hunt Realty releases plan for mixed-use development in Uptown Dallas" "The architect was selected after a nationwide competition as the developer tried to come up with a plan that is in line with the quality of the location, the quality of the city as well as that of the Uptown market."

Regarding the others on the list, they are all pretty large tenants and some have indeed helped kickstart new office tower projects (not that you included that requirement in your question). I think all are large enough they could have been anchor tenants. I could have easily made the list longer, but I wanted to stick with large anchor-type tenants Haynes Boone has helped kickstart two Uptown towers (okay the first was in Victory Park, not technically part of Uptown).

The latest thing to keep an eye on (I wouldn't call it a trend yet, but it bears watching), is the downsizing of Uptown Dallas offices in favor of far north Dallas or northern suburbs.

Tucy wrote:

Addison wrote:

Tucy wrote:
Neiman Marcus's move is stretching the definition of Uptown a bit, isn't it?

But to answer your question, name a major tenant in most any Uptown building and chances are, they moved (or are moving/planning to move) from downtown:

Ernst & Young
Price Waterhouse Coopers
Gardere Wynne Sewell LLP
Akin Gump
Winston & Strawn
Haynes Boone
Winstead
Goldman Sachs

Goldman Sachs is kind of a gray area. While the site is north of Woodall Rogers (putting it outside the technically defined area of downtown), it also technically sits outside of the area defined as Uptown as well. Plus, it's essentially adjacent to downtown and much more closely connected with it than Uptown.

So that one, I give a pass.

Other than maybe E&Y or PwC, I wouldn't have thought of those other companies as being large tenants, at least not large enough alone to help kickstart office tower projects.

That's an odd take regarding the Goldman Sachs site, especially considering how Hunt has described the project, but whatever -- "Our stated goal is to create a green heart to Uptown,” Fitzgibbons said. “What we have essentially planned the project around is a 1.5-acre park.” "Hunt Realty releases plan for mixed-use development in Uptown Dallas" "The architect was selected after a nationwide competition as the developer tried to come up with a plan that is in line with the quality of the location, the quality of the city as well as that of the Uptown market."

Regarding the others on the list, they are all pretty large tenants and some have indeed helped kickstart new office tower projects (not that you included that requirement in your question). I think all are large enough they could have been anchor tenants. I could have easily made the list longer, but I wanted to stick with large anchor-type tenants Haynes Boone has helped kickstart two Uptown towers (okay the first was in Victory Park, not technically part of Uptown).

The latest thing to keep an eye on (I wouldn't call it a trend yet, but it bears watching), is the downsizing of Uptown Dallas offices in favor of far north Dallas or northern suburbs.

I know about Hunt's description of the site, and I can understand why folks see it as part of Uptown (since it's north of Woodall Rogers). But in reality, the site is actually in a geographical gray area, and functionally more closely tied with downtown than Uptown proper.

Also, I did specifically ask about "big downtown tenants" in my original posts that relocated to Uptown. Given the context of the conversation was about office projects seeking large tenants in order to get started, I didn't think it had to be explicitly communicated that was the point of my question.

For now, and probably for the forseeable future, Far North Dallas (and I'll include Addison / Farmers Branch in this) seems to be a dead end when it comes to new office development. Most of the big projects that have been proposed have all stalled, with exception to the plethora of 5-over-1 stick apartments.

That said, the area along DNT between SR-121 and Highway 380 is on a tear. Even Ryan is relocating from the Galleria to that area soon.

Yo, why am I just now realizing that this project has an office component? I’m over here thinking it was all residential. I really need to stop skimming through when I read lol

dallaz wrote:Yo, why am I just now realizing that this project has an office component? I’m over here thinking it was all residential. I really need to stop skimming through when I read lol

Indeed, the lower floors of Portman Holdings' tallest 48-story tower is office space. The Upper floors are residential. The other two towers are residential with the first two floors being retail/restaurants. If you look at Austin's Downtown high-rise explosion, the vast majority of those buildings are residential. It should be noted that the new proposed office buildings in Downtown Dallas are along the Woodall Rogers Freeway corridor, which is adjacent to Uptown, which is the hot spot for urban offices. The Field Street development is also Uptown adjacent. The New Park tower is next to City Hall & the new Convention Center. I believe it has a hotel & education component as part of its make-up. If the new Convention Center is actually built, then New Park and the surrounding area could see momentum for growth, which is what the city is hoping for.

This topic seems a bit off reality, example, Haynes Boone is moving from victory to Harwood… neither are in uptown or downtown. The angled stainless signs accurately define uptown, which is all in the greater oak lawn area. Many who post here can probably define this even further for context.

^how about simply calling the general site of these relocations "the westward edge of growing downtown Dallas"?

Uptown, Victory Park, Harwood Dallas, Turtle Creek, State-Thomas --- these neighborhoods have historically been part of Oak Lawn.

The growing edge of downtown Dallas has been the westward side for generations, these law firms have simply moved from one part of downtown to another, it just takes a while to see that.

LOL. Right, Tamtagon and BoldD, nothing to see here, the Downtown office market is doing just fine and no one is moving out. . .

I don't see any mention of the Dallas project on Portman's page. It used to be on the front page. Hmmm?

RodB wrote:I don't see any mention of the Dallas project on Portman's page. It used to be on the front page. Hmmm?

Yeah, it was on the front page just last week...

Yep the news article is still linked that they bought the land quietly with the old concept renderings, but the project isn't listed under our work under the "development" projects section of the site. It is listed as the Dallas Gateway under the Portman Residential projects page as a current project. I think they have updated the website overall though cause the site looks different than before to me.

RodB wrote:I don't see any mention of the Dallas project on Portman's page. It used to be on the front page. Hmmm?

It is still listed on the Portman Residential page... https://portmanresidential.com/

Tucy wrote:LOL. Right, Tamtagon and BoldD, nothing to see here, the Downtown office market is doing just fine and no one is moving out. . .

Rotflol it's not just about the office market, silly.

The most important thing is the quality of life.

tamtagon wrote:

Tucy wrote:LOL. Right, Tamtagon and BoldD, nothing to see here, the Downtown office market is doing just fine and no one is moving out. . .

Rotflol it's not just about the office market, silly.

The most important thing is the quality of life.

Well, when the topic is companies moving out, it kinda is all about the office market.

Deleted.

The more you all link to it and visit, the more they will Jedi mind-trick/change it. They are noticing the inbound link locations.




lol, just messing around. kind of.

Tucy wrote:LOL. Right, Tamtagon and BoldD, nothing to see here, the Downtown office market is doing just fine and no one is moving out. . .

Haha oh no, downtown office is an issue, I was merely pointing out the neighborhood names from a technical standpoint.

I love f'ing with people about Oak Lawn being right next to the West End. But, it just gets lost on co-workers. I do it anyway.
I have to be careful with the TOOL acronym, I'm not in the Navy anymore.

But, anyway, look forward to this project happening. I have no idea if it will, but, it'll be such a good step in the right direction on that side. Might not look bad either. I have my own thoughts on the rest of the parking lots nearby, they're just daydreams - would be nice to complete this area to an end we can all enjoy.

Drove by the site for the first tower today and three construction vehicles were moving dirt behind the green fences. I couldn't tell to what the extent they were digging up the asphalt, but there's some kind of activity going on.

Can anyone find any FAA, TDLR, or city building permit filings?

Tucy wrote:Can anyone find any FAA, TDLR, or city building permit filings?

Well, I don't have any information on that, but you can drive by the site and see for yourself that something is going on there. These were nice sized pieces of equipment.

rono3849 wrote:

Tucy wrote:Can anyone find any FAA, TDLR, or city building permit filings?

Well, I don't have any information on that, but you can drive by the site and see for yourself that something is going on there. These were nice sized pieces of equipment.

I believe you and what you've reported is interesting; just seeing if there is any more information out there...

For what it's worth, I just did another search of FAA filings and City of Dallas building permit filings and could find no applications for this development. Will be interesting to learn why they are moving dirt on the site (if we ever learn the reason).

rono3849 wrote:

Tucy wrote:Can anyone find any FAA, TDLR, or city building permit filings?

Well, I don't have any information on that, but you can drive by the site and see for yourself that something is going on there. These were nice sized pieces of equipment.

It sounds like a new parking lot or a CVS.

eburress wrote:It sounds like a new parking lot or a CVS.

It already is a parking lot. They put up a fence around the area where the tower is planning to be built. The rest of the area is a parking lot too.

Still no application with the DTLR or the FAA. This project is probably not happening.

I have first hand experience working with Portman in Atlanta.....they will complete the project, even if they delay the start of the project to a better time for them.