Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

texasstar wrote:

This is truly a unique building. An upscale JW Marriott hotel sitting on top of parking garage. I don't think I've ever seen a set up like this before.

rono3849 wrote:

texasstar wrote:

This is truly a unique building. An upscale JW Marriott hotel sitting on top of parking garage. I don't think I've ever seen a set up like this before.

Almost all the new high rise hotels in Nashville sit atop a parking garage, including the new Four Seasons.

But at least in Nashville, these types of structures look a lot less conspicuous (ugly).

Addison wrote:

rono3849 wrote:

texasstar wrote:

This is truly a unique building. An upscale JW Marriott hotel sitting on top of parking garage. I don't think I've ever seen a set up like this before.

Almost all the new high rise hotels in Nashville sit atop a parking garage, including the new Four Seasons.

But at least in Nashville, these types of structures look a lot less conspicuous (ugly).

Some of them look ok, others are hideous. Nashville’s JW Marriott and the Four Seasons did it right, imo. Thankfully Nashville has started to put its foot down regarding parking podiums, requiring them to be lined with active uses or put underground.

Has anyone seen an opening date for this hotel? I believe it was supposed to be in 2022. Are they behind schedule?

Tucy wrote:Has anyone seen an opening date for this hotel? I believe it was supposed to be in 2022. Are they behind schedule?

No idea if they’re behind schedule but I’ve watched it go up out of my office window and there’s been no slowdown in construction.

I do have a hot sports opinion on the dining options here. Freebirds is not good.

I saw first quarter 2023 recently for the hotel. Can't remember what site, might've been one of the construction contractor sites.

ArtVandelay wrote:I do have a hot sports opinion on the dining options here. Freebirds is not good.

I have to agree. I actually like Freebirds, but for this location, it's a nope. Maybe if the area were more established, fine, but Freebirds won't pull any traffic into this area (either on foot or drivers)... I have a feeling they'll struggle to stay open unless the hotel is massively successful.

They used to have one near UT Arlington, and I was not impressed with the food myself, but I am not a burrito person. The problem is how many of the tenants here are fast causal and how many are sit-down, valet-driven restaurants. We want both types in places like this. Lord knows Downtown will never survive on chef-driven fine dining, but so many fast casual brands struggle in our urban environment cause many times, the drive-through or strip center versions are close by. In the case of Uptown, you have many strip centers across the street from an urban walkable project and the fast-casual place will always choose the strip center with overwhelmed parking lot rather than a garage-supported ground floor space even if the parking garage has a FREE Parking sign. Parking in a garage like this to run in and get McDonald's or Chipotle seems like a waste of energy for most of Dallas since most are driving. So in many cases, before the train has even left the station it's running out of track.

cowboyeagle05 wrote:They used to have one near UT Arlington, and I was not impressed with the food myself, but I am not a burrito person. The problem is how many of the tenants here are fast causal and how many are sit-down, valet-driven restaurants. We want both types in places like this. Lord knows Downtown will never survive on chef-driven fine dining, but so many fast casual brands struggle in our urban environment cause many times, the drive-through or strip center versions are close by. In the case of Uptown, you have many strip centers across the street from an urban walkable project and the fast-casual place will always choose the strip center with overwhelmed parking lot rather than a garage-supported ground floor space even if the parking garage has a FREE Parking sign. Parking in a garage like this to run in and get McDonald's or Chipotle seems like a waste of energy for most of Dallas since most are driving. So in many cases, before the train has even left the station it's running out of track.

Well said. A far more eloquently worded and thorough explanation of whatever the hell I said. I was tired.

^Not a great location for them. But more of a lunch and breakfast place. Might pull the office crowd.

Assorted Buildings by Paul O'Connell, on Flickr

Re. the fast/casual places there, keep in mind the frequency with which people are using UberEats, DoorDash, etc to have those places' food delivered. I've never set foot in the Mendocino Farms there but I order their food at least once a week. Freebirds may still suck (I've never eaten there) but there are a ton of people living within their delivery range. They may do just fine.

kingpin wrote:Assorted Buildings by Paul O'Connell, on Flickr

I had to go back and take a look at the renderings...this is kinda underwhelming. Maybe I just need to see it in person.

^No, it is underwhelming. I can see it from our office every time i am in there. It's not much.

The builders/developers seem to have made more of a big deal out of the parking garage than any other part of the mix that comes along.

With JW Marriott as the hotel component (and with DFW not having had a JW previously), I would have thought it would turn out to be a little more substantial.

This is a really cheap and 'suites hotel' looking 'tower.' My God, a JW Marriott and this is the best you can do? The one here in Water Street in DT Tampa is bigger and nicer looking.

citygeek wrote:This is a really cheap and 'suites hotel' looking 'tower.' My God, a JW Marriott and this is the best you can do? The one here in Water Street in DT Tampa is bigger and nicer looking.

Yeah it looks like they cut off the top 25 floors and just left a little stump. Disappointing.

That photo shows the side of the building that will eventually be blocked by a condo or apartment tower. The streetside view is better and more in line with the artist rendering. Once the hotel flag signage is added at the top, it will look better.

vman wrote:

kingpin wrote:Assorted Buildings by Paul O'Connell, on Flickr

I had to go back and take a look at the renderings...this is kinda underwhelming. Maybe I just need to see it in person.

Dallas Developers.... Do Better Yo! ....
....This Development is CHEEKS....The Garage is literally the main feature here...GAH-ROSSSSSE....

JW Marriott lettering added to the exterior

Tnexster wrote:^No, it is underwhelming. I can see it from our office every time i am in there. It's not much.

Welcome to Dallas

It's a shame the garage facade wasn't repeated on the hotel like it is in the rendering. The whole thing could have turned out rather nice; just another glass box now.

Thanks for the pics! I knew something was different about it…sigh

I just hope the residential component get done too. The Olive St side is quite ugly.

dallaz wrote:Thanks for the pics! I knew something was different about it…sigh

I just hope the residential component get done too. The Olive St side is quite ugly.

The dirty little secret is that there isn't a residential component and there never really was...

[img][/img]

Redundant just because I was there haha

Tucy wrote:

dallaz wrote:Thanks for the pics! I knew something was different about it…sigh

I just hope the residential component get done too. The Olive St side is quite ugly.

The dirty little secret is that there isn't a residential component and there never really was...

Then WTH is going on that lot?

dallaz wrote:

Tucy wrote:

dallaz wrote:Thanks for the pics! I knew something was different about it…sigh

I just hope the residential component get done too. The Olive St side is quite ugly.

The dirty little secret is that there isn't a residential component and there never really was...

Then WTH is going on that lot?

Another Building sharing their exposed asshole (unmasked garage) to the world. Dallas loves crappy architecture

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:

dallaz wrote:

Tucy wrote:
The dirty little secret is that there isn't a residential component and there never really was...

Then WTH is going on that lot?

Another Building sharing their exposed asshole (unmasked garage) to the world. Dallas loves crappy architecture

So true. It's all garage, which makes the hotel portion look really small. Maybe the residential tower could balance it out.

dallaz wrote:

Tucy wrote:

dallaz wrote:Thanks for the pics! I knew something was different about it…sigh

I just hope the residential component get done too. The Olive St side is quite ugly.

The dirty little secret is that there isn't a residential component and there never really was...

Then WTH is going on that lot?

Whatever an eventual buyer of the lot decides to put there.

Tucy wrote:

dallaz wrote:

Tucy wrote:
The dirty little secret is that there isn't a residential component and there never really was...

Then WTH is going on that lot?

Whatever an eventual buyer of the lot decides to put there.

Thanks for that!

Well…there’s no telling how long that will take or if it will happen at all.

I'm honestly surprised no one has bought the empty lot and just the built "the proposed" residential tower by now. I'm pretty sure the Atelier has done pretty well. Seems like a no-brainer to just build another thing like that there.

dzh wrote:I'm honestly surprised no one has bought the empty lot and just the built "the proposed" residential tower by now. I'm pretty sure the Atelier has done pretty well. Seems like a no-brainer to just build another thing like that there.

Curious on what basis you are pretty sure Atelier is doing pretty well…. From the available units shown on their website, it looks like they are just under 89% occupied and that’s after they unloaded about almost 10% of their units to a “hotel” operating company.

Tucy wrote:

dzh wrote:I'm honestly surprised no one has bought the empty lot and just the built "the proposed" residential tower by now. I'm pretty sure the Atelier has done pretty well. Seems like a no-brainer to just build another thing like that there.

Curious on what basis you are pretty sure Atelier is doing pretty well…. From the available units shown on their website, it looks like they are just under 89% occupied and that’s after they unloaded about almost 10% of their units to a “hotel” operating company.

Atelier's partnership with Mint House was short lived after overwhelming negative feedback from residents (including myself), ending about six months ago.

Looking forward to the signage going up on the Ross side of the hotel. I think that will pull it together some.

Tucy wrote:

dzh wrote:I'm honestly surprised no one has bought the empty lot and just the built "the proposed" residential tower by now. I'm pretty sure the Atelier has done pretty well. Seems like a no-brainer to just build another thing like that there.

Curious on what basis you are pretty sure Atelier is doing pretty well…. From the available units shown on their website, it looks like they are just under 89% occupied and that’s after they unloaded about almost 10% of their units to a “hotel” operating company.

89% occupancy is pretty good for a tower that is only about 18 moths old (even with 10% of the units leased to a "hotel" operating company).

dzh wrote:

Tucy wrote:

dzh wrote:I'm honestly surprised no one has bought the empty lot and just the built "the proposed" residential tower by now. I'm pretty sure the Atelier has done pretty well. Seems like a no-brainer to just build another thing like that there.

Curious on what basis you are pretty sure Atelier is doing pretty well…. From the available units shown on their website, it looks like they are just under 89% occupied and that’s after they unloaded about almost 10% of their units to a “hotel” operating company.

89% occupancy is pretty good for a tower that is only about 18 moths old (even with 10% of the units leased to a "hotel" operating company).

Two years old, but who’s counting?

UptownDal81 wrote:

Tucy wrote:

dzh wrote:I'm honestly surprised no one has bought the empty lot and just the built "the proposed" residential tower by now. I'm pretty sure the Atelier has done pretty well. Seems like a no-brainer to just build another thing like that there.

Curious on what basis you are pretty sure Atelier is doing pretty well…. From the available units shown on their website, it looks like they are just under 89% occupied and that’s after they unloaded about almost 10% of their units to a “hotel” operating company.

Atelier's partnership with Mint House was short lived after overwhelming negative feedback from residents (including myself), ending about six months ago.

Ahhh… thanks for the update. This (the fact that it infuriates renters) is among the reasons well-performing apartment buildings don’t tend to enter into these faux hotel arrangements.

Tucy wrote:

UptownDal81 wrote:

Tucy wrote:
Ahhh… thanks for the update. This (the fact that it infuriates renters) is among the reasons well-performing apartment buildings don’t tend to enter into these faux hotel arrangements.

I don't know if that's true. I've seen brand new apartments enter such agreements almost as soon as they start leasing. These deals are very lucrative for them.

But are there any high rise apartments around downtown that are not doing well? They all seem to have fairly good occupancy.

vman wrote:

Tucy wrote:

UptownDal81 wrote:

I don't know if that's true. I've seen brand new apartments enter such agreements almost as soon as they start leasing. These deals are very lucrative for them.

But are there any high rise apartments around downtown that are not doing well? They all seem to have fairly good occupancy.

Brand new apartments entering these "hotel" agreements "almost as soon as they start leasing" tells us very little about how lucrative the hotel agreements are. If they were as lucrative as you suggest, apartment developers would enter into them before they start leasing; indeed if they were that lucrative, they would enter into them as part of getting their financing.

Do other downtown apartments have fairly good occupancy? What is the source of your occupancy information? And more important, is “fairly good occupancy” enough to spur new towers?

vman wrote:

Tucy wrote:

UptownDal81 wrote:

I don't know if that's true. I've seen brand new apartments enter such agreements almost as soon as they start leasing. These deals are very lucrative for them.

But are there any high rise apartments around downtown that are not doing well? They all seem to have fairly good occupancy.

It's hard to find information specific to downtown. But what I can find suggests they are doing pretty well, but not gangbusters, and it looks like overall probably a little lower occupancy than the entire market as a whole. So . . . If you were an investor/developer (whose goal is to make as much money as possible, not to build a fantasy land), are you going to build in downtown Dallas, where the cost to build will be higher, or build in one of the metro area's hottest growth areas (or indeed in another metro area), where apartments are in greater demand, and building costs are lower?

https://dallasvoice.com/the-new-jw-marriott-dallas-arts-district-will-be-a-showcase-for-regional-art/

How very kind of the developer to provide the world with a new version of the old rendering so that we can see just how much of a downgrade this exterior is

I really wish the JW logo had been placed at the top facing KWP like in the original renderings.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... struction/
Downtown Dallas’ deluxe JW Marriott Hotel opens its doors after two years of construction
The Ross Avenue luxury hotel includes 267 rooms, new restaurants, meeting space and an upper level swimming pool deck that overlooks the city’s Arts District.
After more than two years of construction, downtown Dallas’ new JW Marriott Hotel has opened its doors as the brand’s first in North Texas.

The 267-room, 15-story hotel is at Ross Avenue and Harwood Street across from the Arts District. The project was developed by Plano’s Sam Moon Group.

“We are excited to bring JW Marriott’s legacy of extraordinary hospitality, thoughtful design and enriching experiences to the Dallas Arts District,” the hotel brand’s Bruce Rohr said in a statement. “Much like the introspective way guests explore the hotel’s neighboring cultural institutions, JW Marriott Dallas Arts District will provide travelers with even more ways to enjoy every moment to the fullest and find inspiration and moments of mindfulness during their stay.”

The luxury hotel has three restaurants, a fitness center and more than 20,000 square feet of meeting space. An upper-level swimming pool deck overlooks the Arts District.

Also from the story:

"The Garage is really the crown jewel of this project. It's literally 6/8's of the entire building. We hope our guest fully enjoy the exposed garage on the backside, a full "Sam Moon", if you will. We even put a neon light sign there with an uplifting message that really contrasts well with the garage's emptiness"

Without the adjoining apartment tower this project is incomplete.

Three restaurants open in Dallas Arts District at new JW Marriott hotel
Margaret’s, Vincent’s and 800 North provide a mix of sit-down restaurants and bars for hotel guests and locals spending an afternoon or evening in the Arts District.

https://www.dallasnews.com/food/restaur ... ott-hotel/

Cbdallas wrote:Without the adjoining apartment tower this project is incomplete.

Let's keep it a buck.... It was always about the garage for the existing commerical tower across the street.

The Jackson St Garage is another fake promis of a potential residential building.. Developers just add that shit cause they a know a stand alone garage is shite project