Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

^I think DMN recently ran a story about South Congress businesses in Austin struggling the say way, too popular to stay inexpensive. It's the way of the world. I want to see Bishop Arts keep the local appeal, with most customers coming from nearby, but nearby includes East and West Jefferson Blvd - Downtown Oak Cliff - which I would like to see totally reinvented with a very high concentration of thousands of new residential dwellings.

I agree that it's a problem, one that is also happening in Deep Ellum as well, but the article that I read also stated that two new galleries are opening in Bishop Arts. So up one overall. I don't know what the solution would be. Artists and musicians go in and make a crappy part of town cool but are eventually run out as the rents raise so they go to another part of town and the process starts over again. My worry is that we are running out of run down parts of town for artists to inhabit.

So Artisan Collective's rent has gone from $3000 in 2006 to $7000 now. Is that an insane jump over 11 years considering how much more foot traffic the area must have now? I'm honestly asking. I have no idea what would be typical.

ericthegardener wrote: Artists and musicians go in and make a crappy part of town cool but are eventually run out as the rents raise so they go to another part of town and the process starts over again. My worry is that we are running out of run down parts of town for artists to inhabit.

word

my anecdote: I've been part of, associated with, orbiting, the nucleus, naturally drawn to this group of city builders, the artists and musicians since The M Streets were ramshackle and Lower Greenville was scary to the general population. Entering the scene with a bunch of other art and music students from Denton kinda fortified the approach. The healthy dose of naivete for fearlessness, complete creative credibility as college students from Denton and the comfort of a gang really helped (me, at least) when moving within the different cultures around town.

Most of my piers, those drawn to a life of creating art or music, maintain the desire of at least amateur enthusiasts while holding some sort of regular career job, many earning a good living through it, and really only moderately sized minority I know of moving on to something entirely different.

From that perspective, I've observed some of those I've know who first nurtured The M Streets and Lower Greenville into what it is today have settled into art/musician family life after purchasing in the neighborhood (as far away as Old Lake Highlands) or a majority easing into the North Dallas/Carrollton/Richardson suburbs which are not so far out in the country anymore, while the wanderers began settling Oak Cliff or Cedars during the 90s heyday of Deep Ellum. These wanderers have either begun to purchase in Oak Cliff or will gladly wander to one of several parts of town ripe for the pre-gentrification creative treatment.

I'm not at all concerned that we're running out of run down parts of town in this sense. A couple successful corporate artists really like old Irving... Expo Park/East Grand has been protected from gentrification by ruinous management at Fair Park and has been the very consistent nesting place... pockets of East Dallas... west of Love Field... there's more than enough!

LongonBigD wrote:I read a story this week (Dallas Voice, perhaps?) that said the Artisan Collective was closing next week because the rent was jacked up and they wouldn't be able to afford the next increase since they opened there about 10 years ago.

I just wanted to say that if Bishop Arts can't figure out a way to keep "art" in the neighborhood, what is the point? They might as well be Bishop Uptown or The Shops of Legacy on Bishop. Maybe they would prefer the name Bishop Knick-Knacks. This is an age-old problem, the area becomes so trendy that the people/shops that made it a destination can no longer afford to remain.

I hope Artisan Collective can find a way to resolve this issue and remain. I have always enjoyed shopping here. If I am honest, this store is the main reason I go to Bishop Arts.

Thats the nature of Art Galleries. They open and as rent goes up and they move on. But the Art Galleries in bishop arts left Oak Cliff long ago ...I'm starting to see the Art scene pick up in West Dallas

The first of the Exxir Bishop Arts development buildings, at Bishop and Melba, look like they've been there for decades. Seems like they're making an honest effort at quality and not just slapping some brick paneling on particle board.

lakewoodhobo wrote:The first of the Exxir Bishop Arts development buildings, at Bishop and Melba, look like they've been there for decades. Seems like they're making an honest effort at quality and not just slapping some brick paneling on particle board.

15578846_10208355297946267_1900562510558961826_n.jpg

I've been very happy with the look of that building so far. Does anyone know when Exxir is supposed to begin work on the larger part of their project? Or are we still waiting for the hotel business to be sorted out?

I hope all of the many other projects going up in the area look as good. I'm way more interested in the potential of Bishop Arts, Deep Ellum and The Cedars to become true walkable neighborhoods than I am in the latest high rise going up in Downtown or Uptown (though I am interested in those neighborhoods too).

I'm estatic to see what the Bishop Arts Village project looks like when complete. If you look at what they did in Santa Monica (Extremely high quality stuff), I have to imagine that the rest of the development will be of the same quality as their first building. A lot of the locals in the area wanted to rag on their development, but if there is one project where they seem to have for the most part made an attempt for a unique development it's Exxir.

The larger portion of the project's rezoning was in front of City Council last week based on the agenda that was posted. I'm not sure if it has one open discussion and then would be on the following meetings consent agenda or whether it could be approved outright, however given the lack of any update in the news, I'd guess it has one more council meeting before full approval. After its approved, I'd guess 6 months or so for them to finalize drawings and financing before construction would begin, although I could see site prep begin prior to that.

ericthegardener wrote: I'm way more interested in the potential of Bishop Arts, Deep Ellum and The Cedars to become true walkable neighborhoods than I am in the latest high rise going up in Downtown or Uptown (though I am interested in those neighborhoods too).

Word

The potential of Downtown is thoroughly dependent on the neighborhoods of Oak Lawn, East Dallas, South Dallas and Oak Cliff evolving into self-sustaining walkable communities.

^ IDK about that... I see DT, specifically the CBD as the most critical part of town.
It's really the Nexus of all those Neighborhoods.

Not mention if we reinvigorate DT with new life, it will feed into other areas.

I see the Ross cooridor/Live Oak (old east Dallas) and even the Cedars becoming even more attractive Neighborhoods if DT is booming.

The same could be said for the Design District and VP.

Not really sure where else to put this but...has anyone else been on the Exxir website and seen the project they have for Carlisle Street in Uptown? It looks incredibly fascinating.

dzh wrote:Not really sure where else to put this but...has anyone else been on the Exxir website and seen the project they have for Carlisle Street in Uptown? It looks incredibly fascinating.

Holy sh!t, The Carlisle is badass! It doesn't seem like there's a thread for it yet, but there should be. What n awesome project!

dzh wrote:Not really sure where else to put this but...has anyone else been on the Exxir website and seen the project they have for Carlisle Street in Uptown? It looks incredibly fascinating.

Wow, that looks amazing.

Wasn't there some news a while back about a condo (or apartment?) complex being bought out in the area? My memory is a bit fuzzy on this, but I'm thinking it was the complex that is bounded by the Katy Trail, Bowen, Carlisle, and Hall. Seems like a good location for the project on their website.

dzh wrote:Not really sure where else to put this but...has anyone else been on the Exxir website and seen the project they have for Carlisle Street in Uptown? It looks incredibly fascinating.

Looks like the usual concept rendering.

ericthegardener wrote:I'm way more interested in the potential of Bishop Arts, Deep Ellum and The Cedars to become true walkable neighborhoods than I am in the latest high rise going up in Downtown or Uptown (though I am interested in those neighborhoods too).

And the Bishop Arts thread has been taken over with discussion of a new high rise in Uptown. I'm cursed.

^maybe 'cuz it's just a matter of time until we see buildings along the lines of The Carlisle proposed for Bishop Arts and other Oak Cliff neighborhoods.

If we didn't want high rise development in Oak Cliff we should have taken the money to do the new streetcar and instead have built it all the way up to Knox. Streetcar service directly out of an urban downtown makes dense development happen. Get ready for a whole lot more high rises over there from Trinity Groves all the way to Jefferson.

I can see high rises along Zang, especially about where El Fenix is located and down closer to the gateway and the river but Bishop Arts? Isn't that capped out at midrise level?

Tnexster wrote:I can see high rises along Zang, especially about where El Fenix is located and down closer to the gateway and the river but Bishop Arts? Isn't that capped out at midrise level?

You are correct. I believe the Oak Cliff Gateway rezoning only allowed for high rises close to the river on and near the Dairies site and Zang triangle. It then steps down from there to 5-8 stories along Zang and then eventually I believe to 5 stories by the time it gets to Bishop Arts. Pretty sure we won't see any additional upzoning in the neighborhood along that corridor for a very long time.

Jefferson is a different story however as I believe its zoning allows taller buildings as well.

I wouldn't mind seeing new high-rise development along Jefferson but then I don't live there so I can say that. They may feel differently.

Dettmann1 wrote:

Tnexster wrote:I can see high rises along Zang, especially about where El Fenix is located and down closer to the gateway and the river but Bishop Arts? Isn't that capped out at midrise level?

You are correct. I believe the Oak Cliff Gateway rezoning only allowed for high rises close to the river on and near the Dairies site and Zang triangle. It then steps down from there to 5-8 stories along Zang and then eventually I believe to 5 stories by the time it gets to Bishop Arts. Pretty sure we won't see any additional upzoning in the neighborhood along that corridor for a very long time.

Jefferson is a different story however as I believe its zoning allows taller buildings as well.

But thanks for the confirmation

A couple of small updates from this weekend:

Bishop Arts Station - I was surprised to drive by and see the NEC of the development is now to street level for concrete forming. We should be seeing some of this above street level in the near future

Crescent Bishop Arts - Demo is done and they've quickly moved into site prep on this site. It looks like they have already removed quite a bit of dirt from the site.

Restaurant on Davis near the funeral home - It's hard to see behind the fence, but it looked like the slab for the building had been poured. Wouldn't be surprised to see this one go vertical shortly as well.

Anyone have an update on the tenants or potential tenants that will fill the first phase of the Nazerian Bishop Arts project on Bishop Ave? The article below from late last year teased tenants that would "suprise" and "amaze."

http://candysdirt.com/2016/09/28/bishop ... t-updates/

These plans are impossible to read, but it looks like the Cuellars are requesting to combine the lots surrounding El Corazón (El Chico building) into one big lot. That is sounding an awful lot like a tear-down in the works. Page 34 of the CPC docket: http://dallascityhall.com/government/me ... .pdf?Web=1



If you look closely, you can see "Orange Bishop Arts LLC, an Alabama LLC." Looks like it was formed last November: https://www.bizapedia.com/al/orange-bis ... s-llc.html

Thanks for sharing. I'm really excited to see what this particular intersection will look like a couple years from now.

lakewoodhobo wrote:These plans are impossible to read, but it looks like the Cuellars are requesting to combine the lots surrounding El Corazón (El Chico building) into one big lot. That is sounding an awful lot like a tear-down in the works. Page 34 of the CPC docket: http://dallascityhall.com/government/me ... .pdf?Web=1

Screen Shot 2017-04-04 at 4.06.33 PM.png

If you look closely, you can see "Orange Bishop Arts LLC, an Alabama LLC." Looks like it was formed last November: https://www.bizapedia.com/al/orange-bis ... s-llc.html

Based on the size of the lot this will most likely be a retail development (probably 1 story based on the larger streets surrounding it). Hopefully they don't put in a large surface parking lot with it and orient the building to the streetcar.

That used to be where Tejano's was located?

dch526 wrote:Based on the size of the lot this will most likely be a retail development (probably 1 story based on the larger streets surrounding it). Hopefully they don't put in a large surface parking lot with it and orient the building to the streetcar.

It's about the same size as the Alamo Manhattan sites, so I don't see a typical retail development going in.

Tnexster wrote:nexster » 04 Apr 2017 22:51 That used to be where Tejano's was located?

Yes, it was El Chico originally, Tejano for a while and now El Corazón. Same owners.

Pretty sure Orange Dev out of Alabama develops CVS's.

p0nyfan wrote:Pretty sure Orange Dev out of Alabama develops CVS's.

Good catch. They are the same people who built the CVS on Singleton: http://www.dallasnews.com/news/dallas-c ... eservation

"Recently, Alabama-based Orange Development has sought to build a CVS on the northeast corner of Singleton Boulevard and Sylvan Avenue, on a plot that sits outside the neighborhood."

The reason I thought it wouldn't be single-use retail is that this is the Oak Cliff Gateway, an area that was rezoned for high density. You can count on this being in the news if the city actually considers allowing another CVS facing the Dallas Streetcar.

^It's a shame thoughtful residents so often must bring these issues to the city.

If it is indeed Orange Dev, then what people are saying is correct. They mainly do CVS work, so it wouldn't surprise me that if they have it under contract, that is what it would be. Definitely a shame since I love that restaurant!

Dettmann1 wrote:If it is indeed Orange Dev, then what people are saying is correct. They mainly do CVS work, so it wouldn't surprise me that if they have it under contract, that is what it would be. Definitely a shame since I love that restaurant!

If El Corazone is being replaced by a CVS, that highlights all the reasons why I left Dallas.

What a Failure if this is true.

And why do we need a CVS there again?.. I swear that there's one on Jefferson.

Does anyone know if Orange Dev were behind the abomination that is the CVS on fitzhugh? That damn thing has a gigantic parking lot with 3 cars parked there during day... Dallas sure knows how to screw up good things.

While these drugstores are reviled for the auto-centric housing disconnected from the pedestrians' neighborhood and taking part of the profiteering of the prescription drug racket, they have also turned into an interesting combination of corner grocery store and Five & Dime....

At strategic intersections across the country, pantry staples are frequently less expensive at the drugstore on one corner than the supermarket across the street. Guiding the corporate giants to house these business - neighborhood amenities - in neighborhood friendly structures should not be a difficult task.

The idea that Bishop Arts (or Deep Ellum or Fair Park or Oak Lawn) would be tainted by corporate chain stores may be unsavory, but it's a reality.

Dallas has a work group tasked with identifying and correcting quality of life disconnects like this, City Design Studio. Even though this work group was initiated to further the likelihood of the Trinity Trust Foundation's Trinity River Tollway, a corner drugstore along a streetcar route in Bishop Arts is the most obvious call.

tamtagon wrote:Dallas has a work group tasked with identifying and correcting quality of life disconnects like this, City Design Studio. Even though this work group was initiated to further the likelihood of the Trinity Trust Foundation's Trinity River Tollway

Lol!

Run @ContriveDallasite!Run!!!!

Honestly have no issue with the service CVS provides, just the lazy disposable architecture they subscribe to. When you look at the map of CVS stores in Oak Cliff, a Bishop Arts-adjacent location does make sense with all the new people expected to live within walking distance.



But it's one thing to replace The Loon with a CVS (as fun as it was, the building was crap) and another to erase good historic architecture.

tamtagon wrote:While these drugstores are reviled for the auto-centric housing disconnected from the pedestrians' neighborhood and taking part of the profiteering of the prescription drug racket, they have also turned into an interesting combination of corner grocery store and Five & Dime....

At strategic intersections across the country, pantry staples are frequently less expensive at the drugstore on one corner than the supermarket across the street. Guiding the corporate giants to house these business - neighborhood amenities - in neighborhood friendly structures should not be a difficult task.

The idea that Bishop Arts (or Deep Ellum or Fair Park or Oak Lawn) would be tainted by corporate chain stores may be unsavory, but it's a reality.

Dallas has a work group tasked with identifying and correcting quality of life disconnects like this, City Design Studio. Even though this work group was initiated to further the likelihood of the Trinity Trust Foundation's Trinity River Tollway, a corner drugstore along a streetcar route in Bishop Arts is the most obvious call.

As many have said with the Uptown Sam's Club debacle, it's fine to have these chains in our neighborhoods but they have to step up their game with their site design and make it fit in with the neighborhood. A big box store with massive surface parking lot just isn't where development has been going in urban Dallas. If this was at the base of an apartment building, with other neighborhood service type space, and minimal to zero surface parking, then I think everyone would be okay with it. What makes this worse is that the building they want to destroy is a lovely 1930's Art Deco building that has operated as a Mexican restaurant by the same family for almost 90 years. If that's not neighborhood character worth saving, I don't know what is.

By the way, I contacted the Oak Cliff Advocate about this and they are already working on a story.

tamtagon wrote:While these drugstores are reviled for the auto-centric housing disconnected from the pedestrians' neighborhood and taking part of the profiteering of the prescription drug racket, they have also turned into an interesting combination of corner grocery store and Five & Dime....

At strategic intersections across the country, pantry staples are frequently less expensive at the drugstore on one corner than the supermarket across the street. Guiding the corporate giants to house these business - neighborhood amenities - in neighborhood friendly structures should not be a difficult task.

The idea that Bishop Arts (or Deep Ellum or Fair Park or Oak Lawn) would be tainted by corporate chain stores may be unsavory, but it's a reality.

Dallas has a work group tasked with identifying and correcting quality of life disconnects like this, City Design Studio. Even though this work group was initiated to further the likelihood of the Trinity Trust Foundation's Trinity River Tollway, a corner drugstore along a streetcar route in Bishop Arts is the most obvious call.

I think you're missing peoples' points. The issue isn't that it's an "unsavory" corporate chain store or that people don't think drug stores address a need. The issue is the suburban, car-centric style in which these CVS stores are developed -- AND -- also that the density of these plots was increased, so potentially plopping a suburban-style retail development down is a massive step in the wrong direction.

Plug a CVS into the ground floor of an urban, mixed-use, pedestrian-friendly development and it becomes a complete non-issue.

eburress wrote:I think you're missing peoples' points ... potentially plopping a suburban-style retail development down is a massive step in the wrong direction

...Plug a CVS into the ground floor of an urban, mixed-use, pedestrian-friendly development and it becomes a complete non-issue.

hahaha sorry, I wanted to say so much, throw a little shade, my point got lost, and forgotten....

That nice building is already suburban-style so keep the building: retrofit suburban CVS into the existing structure; lose the building: and update the whole block with multilevel mixed use taking advantage of streetcar line.

eburress wrote:

tamtagon wrote:While these drugstores are reviled for the auto-centric housing disconnected from the pedestrians' neighborhood and taking part of the profiteering of the prescription drug racket, they have also turned into an interesting combination of corner grocery store and Five & Dime....

At strategic intersections across the country, pantry staples are frequently less expensive at the drugstore on one corner than the supermarket across the street. Guiding the corporate giants to house these business - neighborhood amenities - in neighborhood friendly structures should not be a difficult task.

The idea that Bishop Arts (or Deep Ellum or Fair Park or Oak Lawn) would be tainted by corporate chain stores may be unsavory, but it's a reality.

Dallas has a work group tasked with identifying and correcting quality of life disconnects like this, City Design Studio. Even though this work group was initiated to further the likelihood of the Trinity Trust Foundation's Trinity River Tollway, a corner drugstore along a streetcar route in Bishop Arts is the most obvious call.

I think you're missing peoples' points. The issue isn't that it's an "unsavory" corporate chain store or that people don't think drug stores address a need. The issue is the suburban, car-centric style in which these CVS stores are developed -- AND -- also that the density of these plots was increased, so potentially plopping a suburban-style retail development down is a massive step in the wrong direction.

Plug a CVS into the ground floor of an urban, mixed-use, pedestrian-friendly development and it becomes a complete non-issue.

I agree. CVS is good. The design of most of their stores bad. The CVS here should be reminencent of the one on Lamar in Downtown.

Why isn't Corazon a historical building?

I'd be happy to have a CVS right here only IF they can design their store in a way that it fits the neighborhood. Whatever is developed here should be somewhat dense consider the streetcar station is right on their front doorstep, and there are some reasonably dense developments going up across the street as well.

The neighborhood is going to have to make sure the council holds a standard that is more reflective of an evolution rather than a revolution by steam roller. We want to see new denser development but not just putting more of the same old thing in Oak Cliff just because the demographics have changed some.

I hate the idea of a CVS here. The only way I'd be ok with it is if they save and re-purpose the building. That way, at least some of this local history is preserved. I am definitely opposed to them tearing it down and putting up some awful suburban style CVS (helloooooo McKinney and Lemmon).

If the development moves forward, I'd be suprised if it wasn't more substantial now that I've had some time to read a little more on the site and plat. The plat is calling for a consolidation of 4.5 acres which is larger than a typical retailer that size. My guess would be given what they are probably paying for the land (Land cost has gone up a decent amount in this area), that it will be more than just one tenant. The real unfortunate downside to this site is that it isn't within the Oak Cliff Gateway rezoning area and is just zoned CR. I believe the Oak Cliff Gateway had more stringent zoning requirements.

They could easily build their CVS store like they did on Mckinney Avenue and sell the rest for a smaller retailer on the other end of the consolidated site.

Welp, looks like El Corazon's days are numbered at this point. Looks like a demolition permit has been pulled:
http://oakcliff.advocatemag.com/2017/04/demolition-permit-filed-el-corazon-de-tejas-restaurant/

I'm curious to see what comes of the site and am willing to hold back judgement until it comes out what it will look like. Its a great site and was bound to be redeveloped at some point. Hopefully they are able to come up with something out of the ordinary. The fact that Scott Griggs appears to have an interest in not seeing something plain and normal may hold some promise for what replaces it.

That's a neat building, sad it has to go.

Tnexster wrote:That's a neat building, sad it has to go.

Good enchiladas too.