Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Deep Ellum 1.0

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jetnd87
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby jetnd87 » 01 Oct 2020 16:26

In some happy restaurant opening news, famed Nashville hot chicken restaurant, Hattie B's, is coming to 3000 Main Street (Deep Ellum) in late Summer 2021. The rumors of Deep Ellum's death are greatly overexaggerated.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/life/food/ ... 3211f44152

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jetnd87
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby jetnd87 » 01 Oct 2020 18:17


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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 02 Oct 2020 11:53

The updated plans for the city's efforts to devastate Deep Ellum by converting Elm and Commerce to two-way operation:

https://dallastxgov-my.sharepoint.com/: ... w?e=iwxPjh

I know most of the folks here think this is a great idea. But are you going to want to visit, work in or live in a neighborhood where it takes 20 minutes to drive three blocks, stuck behind a garbage truck or beer bike stopping every 50 feet or moving at 3 MPH? Or sit in total gridlock when some combination of Uber drivers, delivery trucks, buses, emergency vehicles, mail trucks and/or food delivery pickup park across from each other, totally blocking the street for 10 or 20 minutes? None of those are going away. Are your clients or friends going to want to visit when they have to pay $5 to park three blocks away because the city has removed two-thirds of the already limited on-street parking?

For those that are into such things, there are a couple interesting details in the plans. The old streetcar tracks are apparently still there under the middle of Commerce. And between Walton and Hall you can see the actual location of the Mill Creek Culvert, which I've alway wondered about. It's a little bit west of where I thought it was.

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tamtagon
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby tamtagon » 02 Oct 2020 12:18

Too bad Mill Creek wasn't brought back. More than anything else, that would have made East Dallas a better place to live.

Tnexster
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby Tnexster » 04 Oct 2020 11:08

Hannibal Lecter wrote:The updated plans for the city's efforts to devastate Deep Ellum by converting Elm and Commerce to two-way operation:

https://dallastxgov-my.sharepoint.com/: ... w?e=iwxPjh

I know most of the folks here think this is a great idea. But are you going to want to visit, work in or live in a neighborhood where it takes 20 minutes to drive three blocks, stuck behind a garbage truck or beer bike stopping every 50 feet or moving at 3 MPH? Or sit in total gridlock when some combination of Uber drivers, delivery trucks, buses, emergency vehicles, mail trucks and/or food delivery pickup park across from each other, totally blocking the street for 10 or 20 minutes? None of those are going away. Are your clients or friends going to want to visit when they have to pay $5 to park three blocks away because the city has removed two-thirds of the already limited on-street parking?

For those that are into such things, there are a couple interesting details in the plans. The old streetcar tracks are apparently still there under the middle of Commerce. And between Walton and Hall you can see the actual location of the Mill Creek Culvert, which I've alway wondered about. It's a little bit west of where I thought it was.


Kinda like Bishop Arts, once it become too difficult to get in and out and expensive to park I just won't go.

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homeworld1031tx
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby homeworld1031tx » 04 Oct 2020 12:31

And yet bishop arts is now more lively, occupied, and visited than it has ever been

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rono3849
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby rono3849 » 04 Oct 2020 17:41

homeworld1031tx wrote:And yet bishop arts is now more lively, occupied, and visited than it has ever been


Plus, Bishop Arts has actually grown as new stores & restaurants have been built along Bishop Avenue, while high rise apartment buildings are also being built adjacent to the shopping district.
I think Deep Ellum has to find a way to address the night crime in the area. It will take an increase in security & police visibility in the area, but that takes money, which is not easily obtainable in these COVID-19 depressed economic times.

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R1070
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby R1070 » 04 Oct 2020 20:37

Police presence is more of a concern in Deep Ellum than street configurations.

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Mr. Amsterdam
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby Mr. Amsterdam » 05 Oct 2020 05:16

Tnexster wrote:Kinda like Bishop Arts, once it become too difficult to get in and out and expensive to park I just won't go.


Isn't that the end goal for any kind of urban community with good fabric? It becomes a destination for the people in close proximity as opposed to a stay-cation spot for people who live in Plano/etc.
1999 - 2017

willyk
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby willyk » 05 Oct 2020 06:39

Seems like there is plenty of capacity available to shift the commuter traffic to Canton, Gaston, Live Oak and Ross.

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R1070
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby R1070 » 05 Oct 2020 10:27

Yes, that’s true. The street grid through there has enough capacity to route thru traffic around the EMC streets.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 05 Oct 2020 10:34

Mr. Amsterdam wrote:
Isn't that the end goal for any kind of urban community with good fabric? It becomes a destination for the people in close proximity as opposed to a stay-cation spot for people who live in Plano/etc.


This right there.

The problem is of course that not how business owners think. Particularly all the restaurant/night clubs that have opened in the Deep Ellum area are focused on being a destination business that all they want is a large parking lot and lots of customers begging to get inside including large access roads so people can come from miles around. Entertainment Districts are famous for this desire. Notice how Bishop Arts only mildly went down that path. They didn't fill up with bar/clubs and isn't dominated by a huge night life scene. I would love to take a survey of the Bishop Arts customer and see how many are long distance visits and how many are locals. What types of customers are visiting Bishop Arts on a Friday compared to somewhere like Deep Ellum or even Cedar Springs where the gay bars in the past have been busy without much need for babysitting. Every time Deep Ellum develops even a mildly attractive night time scene it explodes into a bigger than manageable and the DPD has to come in and scare the whole scene away and then all those bars/club move somewhere else. I worked in Deep Ellum after the last night life crash when it was a ghost town again. Now it seems better than before but still stuck in the crazy drunk nightlife pattern. Uptown/McKinney got the same bug and now many think its a ghost town now that everything moved to Deep Ellum.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 05 Oct 2020 17:27

Commuter traffic isn't really an issue. Most of it already uses Canton, Live Oak and Gaston. And the "tourists" from the suburbs can fend for themselves. For them, going to Deep Ellum is an experience like going to a ball game or Six Flags -- you wait in line for 20 minutes to pay $10 to park.

The folks being hurt by this are those who already live and work here.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 06 Oct 2020 09:25

And due to the number of residential units going up the number of potential advocates is increasing and that makes it a more stable neighborhood. The more roof tops the more potential advocates for something more than a bar/club neighborhood. Of course not all apartment people are gonna care but that's why you create organizations that create that sense of community. Whether its something like the Downtown Residents Council or something like Uptown Dallas or a neighborhood association and you have to encourage membership. I'm sure the long established advocates of Deep Ellum don't want new voices changing the tune but in the long run it will help balance the scales away from the endless bar/club cycle its been going through for most of my life on this earth.

Which leads to a question for anyone who can answer the Deep Ellum Foundation what do they do and does that org allow membership from just residents or is it just property owners.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 06 Oct 2020 14:36

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Which leads to a question for anyone who can answer the Deep Ellum Foundation what do they do and does that org allow membership from just residents or is it just property owners.


The DEF board is dominated by the large property owners like Westdale, 42 and Madison.

https://www.deepellum-foundation.org/who-we-are

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 06 Oct 2020 15:14

Hannibal Lecter wrote:
cowboyeagle05 wrote:Which leads to a question for anyone who can answer the Deep Ellum Foundation what do they do and does that org allow membership from just residents or is it just property owners.


The DEF board is dominated by the large property owners like Westdale, 42 and Madison.

https://www.deepellum-foundation.org/who-we-are


Which is very important to note. We need more residential activism and I know you are more aware of it Hannibal than I am cause ultimately I don't live down there. Neighborhood Associations can be annoying to many but I am in favor for more engagement than none at all and just having developers interests met is not good enough.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

willyk
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby willyk » 07 Oct 2020 06:03

Honestly, I have always thought that what was attracting people to the new residential in DE was proximity and walkability to the bars and restaurants.

That said, something that would help would with stability would be daytime stores, breakfast joints, soft goods stores and other retail that services the locals.

We’ve got a new Tom Thumb coming. That’s a great start.

Is the Patagonia store still coming along? “... it’s a light, bright 6,500-square-foot space we’re renovating to carry a beautiful selection of quality clothing and gear for the whole family. As with all our stores, however, it’s not just about commerce. We see it as a part of the community that will also serve as a venue for a regular calendar of events (think films, fun runs, yoga classes, presentations, etc.),.. https://www.patagonia.com/patagonia-dallas-2626-main-dallas-texas-75226/store_Patagonia-Dallas.html

And what is going into the redone buildings on Elm across from the Pittman? Hoping for some daytime stuff to support the Pittman, Epic and East Quarter crowds.

If DE could become something more like the French Quarter and less like Sixth Street, that would be a victory...Cafe Du Monde would be a nice fit. https://shop.cafedumonde.com/

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 07 Oct 2020 12:34

willyk wrote:Honestly, I have always thought that what was attracting people to the new residential in DE was proximity and walkability to the bars and restaurants.


That attracts a lot of people to live here. But relatively few people who live here work here, and few people who work here live here. It's a high-rent neighborhood with mostly low wage jobs. People still need to get in and out of the neighborhood.

When friends come to visit you at home do they have to park 2-3 blocks away and pay $5 to park?

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utgf
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby utgf » 10 Oct 2020 01:05

Hannibal Lecter wrote:When friends come to visit you at home do they have to park 2-3 blocks away and pay $5 to park?

If only they were so lucky. :)

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CTroyMathis
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby CTroyMathis » 12 Oct 2020 13:26

Not sure if this one was mentioned before in this thread or slipped-in somewhere else, nevertheless here's something new to me:

The Willow/Commerce St. Flats (or, whatever they want to call it)
http://larkspurcapital.com/projects/com ... reet-flats
http://larkspurcapital.com/news/now-lea ... -warehouse

Ran across it after finding this:
https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/TABS/Search/ ... 2021002277

http://larkspurcapital.com/uploads/proj ... .14-AM.png

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CTroyMathis
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby CTroyMathis » 12 Oct 2020 13:48

Coincidentally, someone else was doing Monday homework also, haha:

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... ail-space/

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tamtagon
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby tamtagon » 12 Oct 2020 14:58

That's new to me. So great to see these midsized apartments starting to pepper East Dallas. I've never really thought of this immediate area as Deep Ellum or Expo Park.... Will be totally interesting to see what happens when I-30 is sunk and a park goes over to reconnect the area.

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eburress
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby eburress » 12 Oct 2020 15:01

Nice find! I really like that building!

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eburress
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby eburress » 12 Oct 2020 15:02

tamtagon wrote:That's new to me. So great to see these midsized apartments starting to pepper East Dallas. I've never really thought of this immediate area as Deep Ellum or Expo Park.... Will be totally interesting to see what happens when I-30 is sunk and a park goes over to reconnect the area.

Is a deck park right there a certainty? There's been talk, for sure, but I didn't realize that was a definite plan.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 13 Oct 2020 09:11

Its still very much a big IF the deck park near there.

We need more smaller buildings like this in Dallas market. The 100-200 unit complex makes for stronger communities plus the amenities driven luxury market balances out a bit more. The sweet spot seems to be around 125-150 units. If you wanna eliminate the amenities and overall make for a even tighter sense of community in one building you go even smaller like Larkspurs smaller project at 50-75 units. You wont have a 7 days a week leasing staff on site but it can def help bring the cost of rent down cause then most likely leasing would be handled by a offsite team that covers more than one building. Packages go in a services like Fetch/Amazon Lockers and you can still offer some light amenities like maybe a community room and/or decent pool.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

DPatel304
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby DPatel304 » 16 Oct 2020 11:13

Cru Hemp Lounge, which was founded in Atlanta a decade ago by businessman and reality-show hanger-on Dennis McKinley, plans to open a location in Deep Ellum in December 2021.
https://dallas.eater.com/2020/10/15/215 ... a-williams

Beloved Ohio shop Jeni’s Splendid Ice Creams is finally moving to Dallas, with its first shop in North Texas landing in Deep Ellum.
https://www.dallasnews.com/food/restaur ... eep-ellum/

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Matt777
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby Matt777 » 16 Oct 2020 18:22

DPatel304 wrote:Cru Hemp Lounge, which was founded in Atlanta a decade ago by businessman and reality-show hanger-on Dennis McKinley, plans to open a location in Deep Ellum in December 2021.
https://dallas.eater.com/2020/10/15/215 ... a-williams

Beloved Ohio shop Jeni’s Splendid Ice Creams is finally moving to Dallas, with its first shop in North Texas landing in Deep Ellum.
https://www.dallasnews.com/food/restaur ... eep-ellum/


New businesses mean jobs which are badly needed right now, but I kind of wish all of these non-Dallas chains would locate in other neighborhoods instead of Deep Ellum. Deep Ellum is becoming carpetbagger central. Jeni's, Cheba Hut, Gus', Punch Bowl, others are all going to take a direct hit on our local flavor places. And let's never forget Franklin's of Austin which deliberately tried to destroy a Dallas institution (Dallas Comedy House) so they could get a primo DE spot. I will never step foot in that place.

Jeni's would have been better for Uptown, IMHO.

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OrangeMike
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby OrangeMike » 16 Oct 2020 19:48

Matt777 wrote:
DPatel304 wrote:Cru Hemp Lounge, which was founded in Atlanta a decade ago by businessman and reality-show hanger-on Dennis McKinley, plans to open a location in Deep Ellum in December 2021.
https://dallas.eater.com/2020/10/15/215 ... a-williams

Beloved Ohio shop Jeni’s Splendid Ice Creams is finally moving to Dallas, with its first shop in North Texas landing in Deep Ellum.
https://www.dallasnews.com/food/restaur ... eep-ellum/


New businesses mean jobs which are badly needed right now, but I kind of wish all of these non-Dallas chains would locate in other neighborhoods instead of Deep Ellum. Deep Ellum is becoming carpetbagger central. Jeni's, Cheba Hut, Gus', Punch Bowl, others are all going to take a direct hit on our local flavor places. And let's never forget Franklin's of Austin which deliberately tried to destroy a Dallas institution (Dallas Comedy House) so they could get a primo DE spot. I will never step foot in that place.

Jeni's would have been better for Uptown, IMHO.


It’s Terry Black’s Barbecue, not Aaron Franklin, that evicted Dallas Comedy House.
____
ETA: I’ll never step foot in there either.

willyk
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Re: Deep Ellum 1.0

Postby willyk » 18 Oct 2020 04:47

Hoping that a tightening DE market sends some adventurous retail and restaurant operators to the East Quarter, Farmers Market and Ross Ave.


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