Downtown Dallas: 2000 Ross Project

[ArtVandelay]

Me thinks they are not covering the Olive St. side with the glass.

If true, does that mean the residential is happening soon?

[Tivo_Kenevil]

Me thinks they are not covering the Olive St. side with the glass.

If true, does that mean the residential is happening soon?

Or that they don't care when the residential happens and they're not going to incur more costs..

[ArtVandelay]

Me thinks they are not covering the Olive St. side with the glass.

If true, does that mean the residential is happening soon?

Or that they don't care when the residential happens and they're not going to incur more costs..

The pessimist in me thinks you’re spot on.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

I'm afraid I'm correct as well.

[joshua.dodd]

Fug...

[R1070]

It doesn't make sense to cover that side if that side lot is to be developed at some point.

[CTroyMathis]

Photos from the other day:
https://twitter.com/CTroyMathis/status/ ... 8897958912

(Ross, Harwood, and, San Jacinto sides.)

[DPatel304]

It doesn't make sense to cover that side if that side lot is to be developed at some point.

I think I'd be more worried if they did decide to cover it. It would make me feel like the residential portion would never come, or come WAY down the line.

I suppose those two things are still a possibility, but leaving it uncovered gives me some more hope..haha.

[itsjrd1964]

OK, kids, not sure how believable this is, but... I just saw this posting on my Facebook page about Trammell Crow Center and the 2000 Ross block. Despite one commenter's post (and what we've all seen up to now with the site), someone representing Trammell Crow Center's FB account answers the guy back:

Screenshot (201).png

Screenshot (202).png

And here's the link that TCC posted:
http://info.trammellcrowcenter.com/blog ... enter-2019

So, if this is true, why did all the big equipment get dismantled? I can't tell if there really is a but-wait-there's-more something to look forward to, or if the TCC FB account person has had a little too much of their kool-aid.

[exelone31]

Good find!

The person really just says there's "a lot more news", so the definition of that could be stretched depending on how optimistic you want to be.

I am hopeful that there could at least be some appealing retail.

[Kelley USA]

Well, if they really are planning on adding the hotel and apartments then technically it could be cheaper to bring the crane down and then erect it again depending on the timeframe. Can't be 100% certain, but it generally cost about $50K to bring a crane down and then another $25k - $50K per month to rent it. So if they knew they weren't actually going to start until say Summer or Fall then it would make sense to bring it down.

[DPatel304]

Nice find! I'm still skeptical because of all the reasons you had stated, but looking forward to whatever they have to announce.

Truthfully, aside from the fact that we were lied to, I really have no problems with this type of development being done in phases. If the market can't support the apartments and hotel, that's fine, go ahead with the garage and retail (much better than an empty lot). As long as there are future plans to make this more than a garage, I'm completely fine with it.

The alternative would have been to not build anything at all and leave this an empty lot until they can justify the whole thing.

[CTroyMathis]

It will be unacceptable if TCC doesn't have their Peloton bikes on every floor exactly like these: https://twitter.com/ClueHeywood/status/ ... 2331217920

[joshua.dodd]

Nothing is going to happen. Trammell Crow is going to sit on this project for as long as they can until they know they're going to make money. Current economic indicators shows the housing, especially ultra-luxury, market is coming to a hard slowdown. I would place a safe bet that the number of new projects across the city will start to become less and less throughout the rest of the year. What we see going up now just might be the tail-end of the boom.

Parking garage demand will likely remain the same.

[CTroyMathis]

So, pictures as of yesterday of the good sides:

[Redblock]

^^^ I had thought the solid white clading would be boring. This shows the play of light and shadow will be quite interesting.

[cowboyeagle05]

It's our little glass tissue box...

[Tnexster]

Major Redevelopment Nears Completion as Dallas Skyscraper Fills Void Left by PwC

https://product.costar.com/home/news/shared/1446867610

[Redblock]

I am involved with the McKinney Avenue Streetcar. We were told before the construction began on the parking garage that they would need us to relocate some of our poles along Olive Street that hold up the wire. This would accommodate access to the apartment tower.

Well, now they say it will be at least 2 YEARS before they will know if we will need to move our poles.

[lakewoodhobo]

One thing I noticed while I walked on the newly reopened sidewalk is how they've lined both sides of Ross and the NE side of Harwood with signature L-shaped light fixtures. They really tie the development together and make you feel like this is an extension of the Arts District.

Now they really need to upgrade the crosswalks in this area to match the paving on Flora.

[maconahey]

Haven't seen this before. Pretty cool

https://www.trammellcrowcenter.com/gallery/renderings/

[Tnexster]

Interesting find, including that one image with a very tall residential tower next to the new parking garage and a completed hotel in the image as well.

[dblough91]

I've been watching the garage get built from above for roughly the past year and a half. Here's what it looks like on top.

[Cord1936]

I've been watching the garage get built from above for roughly the past year and a half. Here's what it looks like on top.

^^^^^^^
Welcome to the Forum with your first ever post!

Cool pic ... correct me if I'm wrong but from all appearances the structure is clearly ready to continue its vertical ascent when the decision is made to do so.

[R1070]

That’s correct.

[joshua.dodd]

I am involved with the McKinney Avenue Streetcar. We were told before the construction began on the parking garage that they would need us to relocate some of our poles along Olive Street that hold up the wire. This would accommodate access to the apartment tower.

Well, now they say it will be at least 2 YEARS before they will know if we will need to move our poles.

I wouldn't worry about it. Economic indicators are indicating that the housing market in DFW is losing steam. I would say we are around the same stages as Dallas was back around the 87 crash--except this time it is residential.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... se-thought

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... onths-2019

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/business/Yo ... 80731.html

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-u-s-ho ... 1543248073

The chances of anything being built on top of this parking garage is slim to none. Don't forget what happened to McKinney and Boll. That project was completely canceled out of the blue. M-Line Tower is still trying to attract tenants.

[Dallas12]

I wouldn't worry about it. Economic indicators are indicating that the housing market in DFW is losing steam. I would say we are around the same stages as Dallas was back around the 87 crash--except this time it is residential.

I’m curious as to what you see as being the parallels between 1987 and now.

[tamtagon]

There 80s crash had a pretty healthy dose of residential, too. Crime was a root cause of the crash back then, and that's probably not a factor this time around. The region never stopped growing, that's when Plano started taking everything fleeing the Dallas CBD. Considering the pace and aggressive negotiation and the dubious existence of corporate welfare incentives, if there's another crash in the next generation of North Texas, it'll likely root deepest in the northern suburbs, and perhaps the CBD will collect the windfall.

The region is not going to stop growing. The homes and apartments will get used. Downtown area will continue to add dwellings and office above the median.

[Tnexster]

There 80s crash had a pretty healthy dose of residential, too. Crime was a root cause of the crash back then, and that's probably not a factor this time around. The region never stopped growing, that's when Plano started taking everything fleeing the Dallas CBD. Considering the pace and aggressive negotiation and the dubious existence of corporate welfare incentives, if there's another crash in the next generation of North Texas, it'll likely root deepest in the northern suburbs, and perhaps the CBD will collect the windfall.

The region is not going to stop growing. The homes and apartments will get used. Downtown area will continue to add dwellings and office above the median.

I thought the 80's was oil....banking....real estate falling like dominoes. I've just never heard the entire crash attributed to crime.

[texasstar]

^ What they did with the real estate was criminal.

[willyk]

Weren’t there a lot of “free rent” signs in the ‘80s?

[itsjrd1964]

Weren’t there a lot of “free rent” signs in the ‘80s?

For a long time, there were special deals and freebies, depending on the complex. That even extended to apartments, IINM.

[cowboyeagle05]

In college, they told students studying city planning that the 80's crash in DFW was a real estate banking crash centered around investments in all that land around I-30 in Garland.

[lakewoodhobo]

What still amazes me about the 80s construction boom is how many downtown businesses built new towers just a few blocks away (MCorp builds Comerica Bank Tower, LTV builds Trammell Crow Center, Southland Life builds Cityplace, etc.) and just abandoned the old towers under the assumption someone else would tear them down for something new.

That so much "free money" existed for this type of construction is just madness.

[Hannibal Lecter]

In college, they told students studying city planning that the 80's crash in DFW was a real estate banking crash centered around investments in all that land around I-30 in Garland.

The primary cause of the crash was Congress retroactively removing the excessive tax benefits of real estate ownership and development.

Real estate values were grossly inflated because they were based on the tax benefits, not the income potential of the property. When Congress changed this real estate values immediately plummeted. This left the banks with negative balance sheets because they had loaned billions of dollars, and their collateral was gone. So the banks get declared technically insolvent and the Feds took them over.

The Feds didn't want to be in the banking business, so they stopped loaning money. As loans came up for renewal the feds wouldn't extend them and nobody else was lending, so the Feds foreclosed on everything. This was happening to even the best properties with positive cash flows -- if your note came due you were screwed. The Feds didn't want to own the properties either, so they set out to liquidate them for pennies on the dollar just to get rid of them. Of course this just depressed values even further.

(Background info: I was in commercial real estate the time. When this started happening our company made a major push to handle properties for the banks, S&Ls, FDIC, FSLIC and RTC. I liquidated over $200M in real estate for them.)

[joshua.dodd]

I wouldn't worry about it. Economic indicators are indicating that the housing market in DFW is losing steam. I would say we are around the same stages as Dallas was back around the 87 crash--except this time it is residential.

I’m curious as to what you see as being the parallels between 1987 and now.

Speculation, specifically luxury developments, which are now saturating the market. In the 1980s, it was commercial real estate over-saturation.

[j_d_p]

In college, they told students studying city planning that the 80's crash in DFW was a real estate banking crash centered around investments in all that land around I-30 in Garland.

Real estate values were grossly inflated because they were based on the tax benefits, not the income potential of the property. When Congress changed this real estate values immediately plummeted. This left the banks with negative balance sheets because they had loaned billions of dollars, and their collateral was gone. So the banks get declared technically insolvent and the Feds took them over.

Could you explain this part?

[Hannibal Lecter]

^ To be brief, over the years lobbyists had gotten Congress to add tax breaks that allowed you to tax take deductions and credits for "paper" losses that far exceeded any actual investment or loss. For example, you could buy in to a highly leveraged partnership for $10,000 and over a period of years get $50,000 or more in tax write-offs that you could offset against other income. Those tax benefits provided a very real income stream, and real estate values are usually based on projections of future income. When Congress eliminated those tax benefits property values crashed overnight.

You may recall a month or so ago the NYT published an article about the $1 billion+ Trump had lost on real estate investments over the years, and Trump (correctly for once) responded that the NYT didn't understand those were paper losses.

BTW, these tax benefits weren't limited to real estate. I recall several folks I know investing in Christmas tree farms back then strictly for the tax benefits. And you still see them today in energy production. I had some investments in oil and coal partnerships and the K-1's (the partnership tax returns) would blow your mind because of all the tax rules.

[Matt777]

Regardless of the different opinions on the 1980's bust, some from people involved, it was a pretty clear cut case of deregulation run amock leading to some shady behavior in real estate financing which lead to a good old fashioned asset bubble.

Read up on Danny Faulkner, the guy who was responsible for the I-30 condo scheme. An illiterate house painter helped make Dallas the epicenter of the S&L fraud scene. It's fascinating how little oversight there was during the Ronald Reagan years. They could make an 80's glam Netflix series out of this character:

https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/ ... dannyland/

NYT Access only, "Fast Money and Fraud"- https://www.nytimes.com/1989/04/23/maga ... fraud.html

That being said, I don't think this is what's happening today. Prices have skyrocketed due to genuine demand from an economy that has been gangbusters for the last 9 years, and was artificially extended by Trump's corporate tax cuts. Will that continue? We will see. But I do not see the "build it and they will come" mentality in Dallas. In fact, I see some cases of extremely conservative construction patterns especially when it comes to office space being built in Uptown and Downtown. Hardly any spec, and new office space is snapped up as soon as it can be occupied.

[tamtagon]

What should really be surprising is that expensive apartments and condos had been scarce around in the greater downtown area. The fast pace of building expensive, concentrated dwellings in 'the city' is doing double duty, making up for a lost generation and building to address the increase in folks who want it.

[Dallas12]

I think the cycle will come full circle eventually, but I do not think it will be in the form of the late 80’s bust or 2007-2008, either. The cocktail of variables in the 1980’s (RE and O&G investments were insanely speculative and highly levered, the S&L deregulation and scandals, tax code changes/implications, etc). Either way, every cycle is different and will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[tamtagon]

I not so sure the old ways of monitoring a cycle apply with enough accuracy anymore, especially in Dallas. There will be ups and down, of course, but Dallas is in a two or three generation 'master cycle' of increasing density. What could be identified as a beginning and end (...or near beginning and near end) falters under rigid parameters; fluidity is needed, and frankly less complicated observational techniques will be more accurate than stacked, drilled and programmed assessments. This shares characteristics with identifiers of young adults who are picking through the habits and lifestyle choices of their parents and grandparents and dumping many of the "improvements" technology brought gave to contemporary heads of households specifically because the improvement actually failed and made life less enjoyable. Anyway....

[dblough91]

I've been watching the garage get built from above for roughly the past year and a half. Here's what it looks like on top.

^^^^^^^
Welcome to the Forum with your first ever post!

Cool pic ... correct me if I'm wrong but from all appearances the structure is clearly ready to continue its vertical ascent when the decision is made to do so.

I'm not sure what the concrete pillar sections are for (don't have experience in high rise construction), but it's clear to me they have purposely designed the roof to serve some other purpose than additional parking space. There is no vehicular access to the roof, and it looks like there may be elevator banks on the far (northwest) side.

They haven't done anything to the roof in some months. Mostly just putting up siding around the north, west, and south sides. One note on the south side is they only covered about 1/3 of it in siding and seem to have taken the scaffolding down. It doesn't look like they plan to cover the entire south side in siding.

[lakewoodhobo]

I see that Roti and Southpaws are well underway here, but there's a third retail space u/c that I'm not sure what it is.

One article mentioned a two-story Common Desk, but I assumed that would be part of TCC and not the garage. Any idea?

[dukemeredith]

400 Gradi, a Neapolitan-style pizzeria that originated in Australia, will soon open its first DFW location.

Applications filed with the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission indicate that 400 Gradi will make its U.S. debut at 2000 Ross Avenue, and an update to the chain’s website confirms its plans to expand into Dallas. Leasing documents for the 2000 Ross Project specify that 400 Gradi will occupy a 5,000 square foot space at the corner of Ross Avenue and Harwood Street. This marks the first U.S. location for 400 Gradi, which also operates locations in Bahrain alongside multiple Australian outposts and forthcoming locations in Kuwait and New Zealand.

https://dallas.eater.com/2018/12/14/181 ... s-district

[Kelley USA]

^^ It might be 400 Gradi, which is a Neapolitan pizza chain from Australia.

[Tnexster]

IF I remember correctly, and it might be on here somewhere, Grati is taking a large corner space on Ross. This one has been in the works for a long time, glad they stuck with it.

[DPatel304]

Retail and restaurant tenants that will occupy ground floor space in the tower and across Ross Avenue in the new 2,000-car parking garage will start moving in next month.

"The first wave will be opening right around Labor Day — two in this building and three across the street," Sowanick said. "We did a good job of making sure the cuisine selection is diverse. You can have everything from breakfast and coffee all the way to dinner."

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... ew-century

Five new restaurants/retail by Labor Day, which was quicker than I expected. Also glad to hear their occupancy levels are good too.