It’s time to close Dallas’ Triple Underpass and build a memorial park

DPatel304
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It’s time to close Dallas’ Triple Underpass and build a memorial park

Postby DPatel304 » 28 Jan 2020 23:39

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This would require something that is long, long overdue: closing Dealey Plaza and the Triple Underpass to vehicular traffic. This space could then be transformed into a park extending from Houston Street to Martyrs Park.

It stands as one of the great shames of the city that this remains open to traffic, that the site where John F. Kennedy was struck by gunfire is marked by tawdry painted Xs. It is an embarrassment, and it is also dangerous, as anyone who has driven that route knows well, with assassination tourists dodging oncoming traffic to take morbid selfies and otherwise track the trajectory of Oswald’s bullets (or form their own theories). How long will it be until it is not just Kennedy’s murder that will require on-street notation?

A proper marker, where visitors can pay their respects and consider history, is clearly warranted. But a park here would have far greater benefits, uniting the new lynching memorial, the Sixth Floor Museum, the Holocaust Museum (just a block away), the adjacent civic museum in the Old Red Courthouse, and the JFK memorial beyond it. A memorial park would bring this ad hoc group of institutions and monuments together, forming a focal point for tourists and the city.

https://outline.com/GgsrfV

I'm all for more greenspace in the urban core, but this idea just seems ridiculous. Plus, it really seems like all the development popping up along Commerce St in West Dallas only exist because this road provides easy access to Downtown.

Anyway, I thought I'd still share this article, even though I doubt this will ever happen and I wouldn't support it even if someone did try to make it happen.

Honestly, the better approach would be to find a way to eliminate/reduce the rail lines as a barrier and extend Martyr's park that way.

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electricron
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Re: It’s time to close Dallas’ Triple Underpass and build a memorial park

Postby electricron » 29 Jan 2020 00:35

Who owns the Dallas Morning News today?
Some history per Wiki
"Dealey Plaza was built on land donated by early Dallas philanthropist and businesswoman Sarah Horton Cockrell. It was the location of the first home built in Dallas, which also became the first courthouse and post office, the first store, and the first fraternal lodge. It is sometimes called the "birthplace of Dallas". The plaza was completed in 1940 as a WPA project on the west edge of downtown Dallas where three streets converge (Main Street, Elm Street, and Commerce Street) to pass under a railroad bridge known locally as the "triple underpass."
The plaza is named for George Bannerman Dealey (1859–1946), a civic leader and early publisher of The Dallas Morning News, who had campaigned for the area's revitalization. Monuments outlining the plaza honor previous prominent Dallas residents and predate President John F. Kennedy's visit by many years. The monument honoring President Kennedy, in the form of a cenotaph, is one block away."

It is already a park. US 67, US 80, US 77, and a pre US Highway Routes - Bankhead Highway - ran through Dealey Plaza. The roads are just as historic as the buildings bordering them.

Whenever out of town friends and family vacation in Dallas, I always drive them down Main, Houston, Elm, and Stemmons Freeway. They always appreciate the historic ride route. Closing the streets to traffic would be a great mistake and a shame, imho.

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exelone31
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Re: It’s time to close Dallas’ Triple Underpass and build a memorial park

Postby exelone31 » 29 Jan 2020 08:44

How about we just start by taking the "x" off the road where JFK was shot? That has always seemed to me like a pretty tactless tribute to a horrible event.

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electricron
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Re: It’s time to close Dallas’ Triple Underpass and build a memorial park

Postby electricron » 29 Jan 2020 09:03

exelone31 wrote:How about we just start by taking the "x" off the road where JFK was shot? That has always seemed to me like a pretty tactless tribute to a horrible event.

A fools errand. Neither the city nor any museum paints those "x"s on the Elm Street. Vendors or hawkers do. As soon as the city paves over Elm, or as soon as the city paints over the "x"s, the vendors selling tourist items will repaint them again. Learn to live with them, they are like phoenixes.

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Re: It’s time to close Dallas’ Triple Underpass and build a memorial park

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 29 Jan 2020 09:29

They would do better to turn the parking behind Dealey Plaza into a new park and connect Martyrs Park by way of a signature pedestrian bridge over the railroads. It has always bothered me how ugly the parking is around the museum anyway. Closing the Triple Underpass completely is a no go and if anyone has seen my posts on this forum I am all for road diets and parks taking precedence over cars but I don't think we mend Dealey Plaza by making the roads into bricked walkways for example. Just seems like you are hurting downtown more and overall fueling the fire of the gob stopping the murder mystery of JFK. Dealey Plaza should be cared for respectfully restored and not torn down either. The Underpass itself is in dire need of cleaning and restoration.
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muncien
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Re: It’s time to close Dallas’ Triple Underpass and build a memorial park

Postby muncien » 29 Jan 2020 10:18

I agree with most on this. But, I wouldn't mind if Main street were tamed to a two lane road with wide sidewalks, parallel parking, and curb bumpouts from this point all the way into the core (where it's already two lanes). It would make a nice arterial route for pedestrians to transit the downtown area, and slow down vehicle traffic. Elm and Commerce already bare the brunt of traffic, and even with that could afford to loose a lane in most areas. Main Streets primary purpose should be for immediate area, and only secondarily to manage vehicular traffic.
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Re: It’s time to close Dallas’ Triple Underpass and build a memorial park

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 29 Jan 2020 10:52

I can agree to those terms to make a positive change^ ALthough seeing parked cars inside of Dealey Plaza seems like it will take some getting used to.
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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: It’s time to close Dallas’ Triple Underpass and build a memorial park

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 29 Jan 2020 12:22

But, I wouldn't mind if Main street were tamed to a two lane road with wide sidewalks, parallel parking, and curb bumpouts from this point all the way into the core (where it's already two lanes).

ALthough seeing parked cars inside of Dealey Plaza seems like it will take some getting used to.

I don't think we mend Dealey Plaza by making the roads into bricked walkways for example.


My understanding is that it's status as a National Historic Landmark prohibits these sorts of changes. Basically it's frozen in time.

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Re: It’s time to close Dallas’ Triple Underpass and build a memorial park

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 29 Jan 2020 14:09

I also thought we don't have really any options other than restoration due to historic designation. I love that the Dallas News critic failed to point that out as a major barrier to such a project. The only reason something major can happen to Dealey Plaza is if a tornado tears through it and even then they would need to rebuild it as it was.
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Re: It’s time to close Dallas’ Triple Underpass and build a memorial park

Postby lakewoodhobo » 29 Jan 2020 15:30

I'm more interested in the Allen Brooks memorial, if that ever happens. Imagine something in the footprint of the Elks Arch, almost floating over the intersection of Main and Akard. That would be quite ambitious.

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IcedCowboyCoffee
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Re: It’s time to close Dallas’ Triple Underpass and build a memorial park

Postby IcedCowboyCoffee » 20 Oct 2022 13:45

DMN commissioned a speculative design proposal, and it's interesting to read in light of all the earlier comments in this thread because it addresses a lot of your specific concerns

Reinventing Dealey Plaza

It's worth reading in full, but basically it leaves everything completely intact: the grassy knoll is still the grassy knoll, Elm street is preserved as a "street" but is closed to vehicles (this is in contrast to the original proposal that suggested closing Elm, Main and Commerce. It's only Elm closed here, which opens back up as a street past Martyr park), and the X-marks are removed and replaced with small fountain features (More tasteful while also preventing the X's from being repainted).

The parking lot is transformed into an amphitheater with a signature pedestrian bridge that connects to Martyr's park (just as cowboyeagle05 proposed here!). Having two pedestrian friendly pathways connecting to Martyr park is what that space needs and deserves.

I honestly like everything about this. No notes. It preserves the look and feel of Dealey Plaza as a historic landmark while being significantly more pedestrian friendly.

The primary concern naturally is Elm st car traffic being funneled to Main street, but this point made at the end is salient:
But “Where does the traffic go?” can no longer be the primary and determinative urban planning question in Dallas. For far too long, Dallas has had its imperatives reversed, and it has suffered the consequences: empty, dangerous streets, disinvestment, infrastructure needs that can never be met.

The question the city must ask is, “How do we make spaces where people want to be?” This plan demonstrates how that can be accomplished.


Closing down all of Elm/Main/Commerce would have been ignoring traffic. This proposal is a good compromise between cars and pedestrians.
Bonus points for the plan trying to enhance the connection of downtown to the Trinity river. Big-fancy-hypothetical-park on the river or not, the city should want to be creating connective tissue to the Trinity either way, and this plan's idea for Commerce street is a fairly modest and affordable way to do it.

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Matt777
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Re: It’s time to close Dallas’ Triple Underpass and build a memorial park

Postby Matt777 » 21 Oct 2022 14:41

I know it would be crazy expensive, but what about tunneling Elm/Main Commerce and then opening up all of the land between Houston St. and the hopefully some day Trinity park/wildlands park, and combine with the jail/court land (that might move anyway) to fully connect Downtown to the Trinity with parkland? It would still have the rail bridge and an elevated I-35 crossing over it but maybe the city can finally get the under-highway park with jugglers they wanted years ago.

In all seriousness, it would make the future Trinity river district/park combine so cohesively with Downtown, and would spur development on the West side of the CBD. But, of course, lots of $$$.

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potatocoins
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Re: It’s time to close Dallas’ Triple Underpass and build a memorial park

Postby potatocoins » 21 Oct 2022 15:18

I like their plan to close off Elm, it seems pretty feasible and makes sense. This area already sees a good amount of pedestrian traffic, so it would be great if they had a safer/easier way to navigate the area on foot.

The pedestrian walkway thing looks incredibly excessive and not needed at all, IMO. I really don't know much about Martyrs Park and it sounds like it is important/significant. However, it's boxed into an awful position between roads/highways/rail, and I'm not sure an expensive bridge will really encourage more people to hang out there.

I don't know how complicated this would be, but I'd rather see them use more of the space underneath the existing rail line bridge, if that makes sense. Extend the grassy knoll greenspace a bit further north into the parking lot, and have the greenspace go to the west underneath the bridge and connect to Martyrs Park that way.

Frankly, I'm okay just shutting down Elm st to traffic and leaving it at that.

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IcedCowboyCoffee
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Re: It’s time to close Dallas’ Triple Underpass and build a memorial park

Postby IcedCowboyCoffee » 21 Oct 2022 16:32

If I was playing with SimCity money I'd bury all of the mix master :lol: but, barring that, if we had the purse for it, I think there's a way we could create a solid pedestrian connection between downtown and the trinity with (mostly) what we have.
With some expensive shuffling around we could maybe reconstruct the I-35 on-ramps to instead come off of Main street instead of Elm. Then you could convert all of Elm starting at Houston st. into a pedestrian path that would then pass under the new on-ramps and meet with Main st.
At Main st. it would then completely takeover the current west-bound lanes all the way to the river. The east-bound lanes of Main would then become two-way, giving Main a diet.

Such a pedestrian path would only need to make two crossings on its way to the river: across one of the I-35 off-ramps which I think could be reasonably closed, and across riverfront blvd. At riverfront it could be a massive crosswalk with a ton of traffic calming measures put in place (or with SimCity money, trench and cover Riverfront right there ahah).

Between Houston st. and the Triple Underpass Elm would remain a fake street open to pedestrians, but from Martyrs park all the way to the river it could be lush with trees, benches, light fixtures, and a bike path. Taking over three car lanes provides a ton of room.
elm1.jpg
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IcedCowboyCoffee
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Re: It’s time to close Dallas’ Triple Underpass and build a memorial park

Postby IcedCowboyCoffee » 21 Oct 2022 16:53

potatocoins wrote:I like their plan to close off Elm, it seems pretty feasible and makes sense. This area already sees a good amount of pedestrian traffic, so it would be great if they had a safer/easier way to navigate the area on foot.

The pedestrian walkway thing looks incredibly excessive and not needed at all, IMO. I really don't know much about Martyrs Park and it sounds like it is important/significant. However, it's boxed into an awful position between roads/highways/rail, and I'm not sure an expensive bridge will really encourage more people to hang out there.

I don't know how complicated this would be, but I'd rather see them use more of the space underneath the existing rail line bridge, if that makes sense. Extend the grassy knoll greenspace a bit further north into the parking lot, and have the greenspace go to the west underneath the bridge and connect to Martyrs Park that way.

Frankly, I'm okay just shutting down Elm st to traffic and leaving it at that.

I don't think they're able to much of anything to Elm st between Houston and the underpass because of its historic landmark designation, I think it has to remain a "street" in appearance for some distance, so they probably couldn't extend the greenspace itself to go under the underpass.

I think the benefit of the pedestrian bridge is that without it there is no visual cue to pique people's curiosity to check out anything beyond the underpass. Good city design draws people's attention in different directions. The reason infill can be so valuable downtown is because our deadzones essentially bring pedestrians to a halt. "There's nothing here so there's probably not much beyond here, guess I'll turn back now."
The underpass represents a visual barrier. People in Dealey Plaza just see traffic going through and a mass of freeways beyond it. Why even bother going under it a single step when it seems from right there that there's nothing beyond it. But there's a park and just beyond it is the river, and we want to draw people's attention that direction.

The amphitheater is nice because it might offer a higher vantage point where Martyrs park might be visible. But if people see they have to go back down the hill and under the bridge to reach it then laziness will kick in. The pedestrian bridge creates immediate access there while being enticing. You'll want to see what sort of views you can get there, "Oh I bet it's a great place to get a picture of the Plaza and the museum all in one." Then once you're up there you see there's another park right beside you, and ideally maybe a nice path to entice you further west towards the river.

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northsouth
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Re: It’s time to close Dallas’ Triple Underpass and build a memorial park

Postby northsouth » 22 Sep 2023 22:07

I didn't notice this until a few days ago, but it seems that they have installed what appears to be a sundial in Martyrs Park. Looking back at older photos of mine, the concrete base was installed in mid to late August, but I didn't notice at the time. When it cools down again (at this rate, November) I'll walk over and get a better look at it.
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northsouth
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Re: It’s time to close Dallas’ Triple Underpass and build a memorial park

Postby northsouth » 11 Oct 2023 20:44

Got a closer look at it today. It is in fact a memorial for Black people of Dallas who suffered violence at the hand of white supremacist violence, noting in particular three men who were lynched near the spot in 1860. The construction fencing has been removed, but there is not yet a concrete path to it from the sidewalk; there is a path marked with spraypaint, but no further work on it so far. It will be interesting to see how the sundial aspect of the design will come into play on a day that isn't overcast.
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electricron
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Re: It’s time to close Dallas’ Triple Underpass and build a memorial park

Postby electricron » 25 Dec 2023 07:36

I strongly disagree. It is a historic location that should remain as unaltered as possible.
As it is today, people can walk around the entire plaza, check out potential firing angles, realize how close everything is, and reach their own conclusion to what happen. Change it, and that all goes away.

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IcedCowboyCoffee
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Re: It’s time to close Dallas’ Triple Underpass and build a memorial park

Postby IcedCowboyCoffee » 27 Dec 2023 11:38

electricron wrote:I strongly disagree. It is a historic location that should remain as unaltered as possible.
As it is today, people can walk around the entire plaza, check out potential firing angles, realize how close everything is, and reach their own conclusion to what happen. Change it, and that all goes away.


The Dallas Morning News proposal shared a few posts above closes the street with bollards and keeps it a "street" in appearance so that it looks exactly as it did then, while allowing people to freely walk and explore the area. All of the suggested changes in this hypothetical proposal are outside of the amber-preserved bubble of the plaza while making it more accessible and adding new viewpoints, which is why I like it so much.

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electricron
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Re: It’s time to close Dallas’ Triple Underpass and build a memorial park

Postby electricron » 17 Mar 2024 20:15

Historically, Dealy Plaza was to be the front door to downtown Dallas from most compass points (North, West, and South) except from the East.
It still is.