Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Almost a half decade now since the Simmons gift was announced and literally nothing to show for it.

Twenty years they have promised a park that was to start construction in 18-24 months. I wonder how much longer they can go on saying just wait another two years. The answer is probably forever or until their philanthropists croak.

casperitl wrote:Almost a half decade now since the Simmons gift was announced and literally nothing to show for it.

Twenty years they have promised a park that was to start construction in 18-24 months. I wonder how much longer they can go on saying just wait another two years. The answer is probably forever or until their philanthropists croak.

I was out shooting the skyline on the edge of the Trinity last night. Actually met up with a dude from the forum (connected over IG, funnily enough, then found out DFWU mutual users). Anyways, that subject was the majority of what we spoke about through the couple hours we were on the banks of the Trinity taking photos and all. It's really baffling that it's taken so long for nothing to happen...

undefinedprocess wrote:

casperitl wrote:Almost a half decade now since the Simmons gift was announced and literally nothing to show for it.

Twenty years they have promised a park that was to start construction in 18-24 months. I wonder how much longer they can go on saying just wait another two years. The answer is probably forever or until their philanthropists croak.

I was out shooting the skyline on the edge of the Trinity last night. Actually met up with a dude from the forum (connected over IG, funnily enough, then found out DFWU mutual users). Anyways, that subject was the majority of what we spoke about through the couple hours we were on the banks of the Trinity taking photos and all. It's really baffling that it's taken so long for nothing to happen...

I was also out on the Trinity last night . Between McDermott bridge and Zang. Saw a group of photographers, and few people walking. I was coming specifically to this thread to comment the exact same thing lol The recent deluge makes for great pictures, but its a pain for people to casually take it in. I saw a lady run out of her car at a red light on Sylvan. She shouldn’t have to do that! It really wouldn’t take much to improve what’s already there. If I won the lottery I would do it myself honestly

Some connections between the levees and the bridge side walks would help a lot!
Connecting the separate trails with consistent pavement would do wonders for the mud.
And also help people navigate to different parts of the trinity from a single entry point

I’d also settle for more trammel crow sized ponds in strategic points. Like here





Also can we do something about these power lines? They ruin great views.


Lastly, some consistent landscape management. The wildflowers are great. It would help if there was a way to encourage more wildflower growth around the other paths for more uniform experience, even if they aren’t all the same kind of wildflower. There was some nice growth around the cows at Trammel park, and then they mowed it down!
There should be blue bonnets there. It’s a great vantage point

quixomniac wrote:Also can we do something about these power lines? They ruin great views.

Tom Leppert tried to talk the state PUC into charging all electric users statewide for the $130+ million cost of burying those power lines.

You can guess how that went over.

http://www3.dallascityhall.com/committe ... 030408.pdf

Hannibal Lecter wrote:

quixomniac wrote:Also can we do something about these power lines? They ruin great views.

Tom Leppert tried to talk the state PUC into charging all electric users statewide for the $130+ million cost of burying those power lines.

You can guess how that went over.

http://www3.dallascityhall.com/committe ... 030408.pdf

Great info. I had completely forgotten Tom Leppert existed. I also really appreciate how other members form a memory bank of sorts. I recall you also brought up the old arguments on the Gaston Ave. Tunnel.

I am appalled at how much of a recurring theme Dallas/TX politics is, “we could have done something about it earlier, but we didnt.” Paid statewide? Almost every slide says paid at the cost of the city. The ones that bother me the most are the ones along the West Levee, which would be $56M.

But honestly they wouldn’t even have to be located underground, just outside of the levee. Maybe along one of the parallel streets. It’s kinda hard to sell townhomes and apartments with skyline views as selling points when you are staring at power lines like that. Ive cringed at so many selfies posted by people with those power lines.

Looks like any kind of construction will now be pushed into the very late part of this decade if not later according to Peter Simek's article in the August 2021 edition of D Magazine. Since the article mentions they have suspended fundraising it appears that the recreation area is dead in the water for now.

Why does it have to be this way with a certain group of people? They have hijacked the Trinity River essentially holding it hostage while their plans fail to make it to reality for decades. Others have ideas too that could have been built out by now at a lower cost and greater return on investment.

Is there a link to the D magazine story?

I never raised my hopes. So I don't really feel let down at this point.

quixomniac wrote:

Hannibal Lecter wrote:

quixomniac wrote:Also can we do something about these power lines? They ruin great views.

Tom Leppert tried to talk the state PUC into charging all electric users statewide for the $130+ million cost of burying those power lines.

You can guess how that went over.

I am appalled at how much of a recurring theme Dallas/TX politics is, “we could have done something about it earlier, but we didnt.” Paid statewide? Almost every slide says paid at the cost of the city. The ones that bother me the most are the ones along the West Levee, which would be $56M.

But honestly they wouldn’t even have to be located underground, just outside of the levee. Maybe along one of the parallel streets. It’s kinda hard to sell townhomes and apartments with skyline views as selling points when you are staring at power lines like that. Ive cringed at so many selfies posted by people with those power lines.

It has been studied to death, the cost to bury the lines lies with the city because it is the city that wants them buried. Oncor is more than happy to keep the above ground lines as is.
Dreams of skyscrapers and higher density housing south of downtown Dallas will require more power coming into it. Burying the lines costs more. The question left unanswered is who is going to pay for them?

Do you want electrical power to your new developments or not?

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Is there a link to the D magazine story?

I never raised my hopes. So I don't really feel let down at this point.

I subscribe to the magazine and get it at home. Their content is usually online a week or two into the calendar month.

Well, it’s out now

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Is there a link to the D magazine story?
I never raised my hopes. So I don't really feel let down at this point.

casperitl wrote:I subscribe to the magazine and get it at home. Their content is usually online a week or two into the calendar month.

Here is the link.
https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/ ... ef=feat-hp
Harold Simmons Park Is Under Water

As part of $5 billion allocated for Texas flood control projects by the Trump administration, $275 million will go to the Trinity River levee system for improvements over the next six years. It will be the most extensive work on the levees since they were completed in the 1930s. The Trinity Park Conservancy says it hopes to break ground on the east overlook park within 19 to 25 months.

Basically the surprise ArmyCorp funding for new levees puts a shroud of uncertainty over when the park will be built and could delay it for a few years. But I honestly can’t see why they can’t coordinate to work together. They need to dig into the river for the levees, and we need to dig into the river for new channels/lakes. Why not both?

2nd, the delay puts a strain on fundraising since some of the donations are time dependent. Which in my opinion is stupid. And the uncertainty makes it hard to gather additional pledges if they don’t know if and when the park will be built.

...so work can't begin till 2030 realistically.. haha

What a cluster.
At this point, I feel like I have a better chance of winning a giant lottery jackpot than seeing anything good happen with the Trinity in the next 5-10 years...
Maybe if I win, I can make a donation that isn't time dependent.

The Army Corps of Engineers will be using the areas inside the levees as a borrow source for soils needed along the levees. The green space you see now will basically be transformed into gravel pits.

Not sure what to make of how the Trinity Park Conservancy plans to move forward in this decade. They have been busy buying commercial properties outside the levees in West Dallas and in the Design District under stalking horse shell corporations. Couple that with their move towards working more on social justice issues makes me wonder what purpose they are really working towards.

Pretty sure they should be focused on a park between the levees along the river. Not all this other stuff.

I watched the last years worth of the Trinity LGC meetings one lazy Sunday. There are no words damning enough to convey how useless the board is. Anything that has been written about the LGC and TPC, regardless of how negative, including the Simek article above, fails to adequately capture just how bad it is.

If the LGC’s charter gets amended to reflect an open ended time line, there is a zero percent chance the ‘park’ is ever built in any meaningful way.

Well to be honest the land they have been buying for parks on the outside of the levees makes more sense than the Disneyland like renderings they keep producing about between the levees. A playground and viewing area seem more reasonable projects. The social justice causes seem more like their previous director Brown. He created bcWorkshop which is basically a city planning firm that focuses on community engagement. They did a lot of consulting for road diets, pop up events, community input gathering workshops etc. bcWorkshop took planning back to its roots in activism in real communities and less guys in suits in the office pointing at grandiose plans mostly designed by Politian's aka the Trinity Project since 1998.

Brown wanted the park to actually address real issues and not be some watercolor painting. Dallas politicians have long ignored south Dallas as we all know and a park on this scale could be the bridge unlike something Santiago Calatrava could ever do thoughtfully. Parks and planning should be addressing these issues of disparity and access to quality community spaces to uplift quality of life for our neighborhoods. Of course doing so will always make things political as anyone who mentions community space and or public access is labeled a socialist/communist depending on how much the person knows what both those words actually mean.

With all that said I have not watched the meetings so I don't know how far down the social justice hole they may have been going. Plus isn't Brown out of the LGC now?

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Well to be honest the land they have been buying for parks on the outside of the levees makes more sense than the Disneyland like renderings they keep producing about between the levees. A playground and viewing area seem more reasonable projects. The social justice causes seem more like their previous director Brown. He created bcWorkshop which is basically a city planning firm that focuses on community engagement. They did a lot of consulting for road diets, pop up events, community input gathering workshops etc. bcWorkshop took planning back to its roots in activism in real communities and less guys in suits in the office pointing at grandiose plans mostly designed by Politian's aka the Trinity Project since 1998.

Brown wanted the park to actually address real issues and not be some watercolor painting. Dallas politicians have long ignored south Dallas as we all know and a park on this scale could be the bridge unlike something Santiago Calatrava could ever do thoughtfully. Parks and planning should be addressing these issues of disparity and access to quality community spaces to uplift quality of life for our neighborhoods. Of course doing so will always make things political as anyone who mentions community space and or public access is labeled a socialist/communist depending on how much the person knows what both those words actually mean.

With all that said I have not watched the meetings so I don't know how far down the social justice hole they may have been going. Plus isn't Brown out of the LGC now?

Brown was a part of the TPC, not the LGC. To your point, though, you are correct; he is no longer a part of the TPC.

Easy thing to mix up!

The new director ran Tulsa's Gathering Place Park. Hopefully a new fresh set of eyes can bring some new life to a project that's stumbled along far more than it has shined.

^Yes thanks for the clarity on the TPC vs LGC. Yes but this new person will come into still a heap of political weight to deal with. The number of lunches he has already been taken to by those who wish to influence him must be annoying. Just to read the headlines from the Leppert vs Angela Hunt stories alone is enough to bury anyone in confusion for weeks if not months.

This is really unfortunate... I have been a little out of the loop but had thought perhaps the last plan was moving forward.. it seemed like everyone was mostly on board...

I was just in London and I spent a fair amount of time walking around their huge parks... It just kind struck me that these parks that are so integral to London Life are not really all that fancy... The grass is wild in some areas... Most walk ways are nothing more than asphalt or even gravel. They really are mostly just big open spaces...

gshelton91 wrote:This is really unfortunate... I have been a little out of the loop but had thought perhaps the last plan was moving forward.. it seemed like everyone was mostly on board...

I was just in London and I spent a fair amount of time walking around their huge parks... It just kind struck me that these parks that are so integral to London Life are not really all that fancy... The grass is wild in some areas... Most walk ways are nothing more than asphalt or even gravel. They really are mostly just big open spaces...

Isn't that basically what the Trinity River is? A giant open space with really nice wide concrete paths plus some wild grass and wetlands. I don't actually feel like it need much improvement. Its always going to flood and the easier the cleanup after a flood the better.

The only project I was into near recent history is the some form of re-curving the river to help restore the river flow. The straightened path is problematic for pollution and the function of the flood zone. If they could at least add some of the S curve back in between the levees like recently planned I would be calling it done after that.

Planners Promise Major Announcement on Harold Simmons Trinity Park
https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/plann ... t_DFWBrand

An overlook on the west side near Commerce Street and the former Dawson State Jail location on the east side are planned as anchor locations overlooking a park.

Moore said the Conservancy owns the jail structure, which could be redeveloped into 10 stories of park activities.

“A rooftop restaurant would be a very exciting option,” he said.

With park construction inside the levees still on hold, perhaps for years longer, Moore said the conservancy has planned improvements for both sides of the Ron Kirk pedestrian bridge, the former Continental Viaduct that was renamed for the former mayor.

A new landscaped approach is envisioned for the east side and a parking lot on the west side would become athletic fields and a spray park.

“The opportunity to bookend an iconic bridge which is Ron Kirk Bridge, with activities on both ends was just the opportunity of a lifetime,” Moore said.

We're not even talking about stuff inside the levees anymore, it seems.

I can't really see the jail being re-developed into 10 stories of park activities. I'm not even sure what that would look like, and where does the existing jail move to?

I do like that the focus is on putting overlook parks along the levees instead. That seems a lot more realistic, and I'd much rather see a nice boardwalk that surrounds the Trinity Park with some overlook parks along the way, rather than trying to do something inside the levees.

That building should be more of a rec center than anything else. I'm not sure if that's what they mean. Get some indoor tennis, squash, and basketball courts in there. If possible, take over some of the parking lot for outdoor sports.

Wanting to put a restaurant at the top seems destined to fail before people even know it's up there. I could see the roof being turned into a great observation deck/garden sort of thing though. You've got the arch bridges bookending your views of the river up there. Add some greenery and benches. Sounds great. A restaurant just seems like a way of limiting who can get up there.

So silly!!!

The only logical place for a park overlook is in the south side of the levee. Oak Cliff is just about the best part of Dallas, but it's skyline is not a good backdrop.

The northern levee-side developments need complete and total access to the park, but a overlook with rooftop dining only makes sense on the other side of the river.

Duh

This project is just.... No......a restaurant? That's the best they can think of?....if the best the conservancy can do is a restaurant.. why even bother purchasing that land? Seem like they're land speculators more than anything else

I highly recommend watching the update from the TPC in October. It clearly outlines their scope and intent. As of October, at least…

https://dallastx.swagit.com/play/10222021-782

The Corps of Engineers along with Dallas Water Utilities are going to excavate most of the area between the levees as borrow pits for strengthening the levees by widening them. The big wide open green spaces from one end to the other are going away. Enjoy them while you can.

If you want a lot of great background on the issues at hand, look at the lawsuit 20 years ago between nature organizations and the Corps:
https://casetext.com/case/texas-com-nat ... van-winkle

Many Dallasites were mislead by what was being promoted. No one will be held accountable for it. Those who asked contrarian questions, questioned the establishment, asked for hard details were vilified by the establishment. Those contrarians are now vindicated. It comes at the cost though of 24 years of a promised park that did not happen. Should anyone ever listen in the future to what the Kirk's, Rawlings' or honchos at the City of Dallas say about the Trinity River Project again? They were all proven wrong with the passage of time.

potatocoins wrote:I can't really see the jail being re-developed into 10 stories of park activities. I'm not even sure what that would look like, and where does the existing jail move to?

You haven't kept up then the Jail was closed a while ago. Local reps got the privately-run jail closed. The County jail and courts complex is not on the chopping block here only the former state jail that is already empty.

Honestly how about the conservancy start by helping restore the old bridges. Oncor tried to fix the lights many times before and they work off and on but the whole Commerce Street bridge needs major rewiring and restoration. I am not even asking for them to make the commerce street bridge into a "park" just fix the cracks, and lights and study the possibility to make it easier to cross on foot or bike than it is now and or integrating into the Trinity Skyline trail that runs along the tops of the levees.

I am fine with the edge improvements but the focus on keeping the jail building is a mess and a skinny 10-story recreation building makes no sense. Develop a levee park that takes advantage of the levee's unique impact from outside the flood zone and sell the rest of the land to a developer to build residential and commercial space.

cowboyeagle05 wrote: sell the rest of the land to a developer to build residential and commercial space.

The TPC has at least three other stalking horse corporations it runs to hold real estate on both sides of the Trinity River. They are a market maker and developer too. They own RFA 106 W Commerce LLC, Riverfront Acquisitions LLC and TPC Beckley LLC which are property holding companies.

For instance TPC Beckley LLC owns all the land between Commerce and the train tracks north of Beckley, between Beckley and the railroad tracks.

It gets strange when you start looking into the Trinity LGC board members, their families ties to other interested parties involving public funds and how some folks have side deals tied back to other developers etc.

That I am not surprised by at all. We all know the Trinity Project has always been about owning land next to the Trinity Tollway for profit by a select group of private interests.

Glad to say the Army Corp of Engineers's levee work has started. Expected to be done in a couple years, will increase floodway capacity by almost a quarter.

"Work is underway on a $223 million project to improve the Trinity floodway in Dallas" - Dallas Morning News

The Army Corp of Engineers is overseeing work to raise certain sections of the levees along the river by 2 to 6 feet and reduce the slope on some portions along the 23-mile network of barriers that hold back floodwaters. Existing pump stations will be renovated, and a pump station will be built near the western portion of the existing levee system on the south side of the river.

- https://www.dallasnews.com/news/environment/2022/06/07/work-is-underway-on-a-223-million-project-to-improve-the-trinity-floodway-in-dallas/

Ultimately this is what really matters with the Trinity despite all the vanity park projects and misguided transportation projects. Flood Control is the most necessary focus and keeping the water from flooding Downtown and surrounding neighborhoods of all demographics is and should be no 1 priority. These projects are not sexy or full of fun renderings and they will go unnoticed by 99% of the public. At least this money will not sit around while the city staff/council misappropriates funds to badly implemented projects.

Should be hearing more soon?

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/dalla ... k/3283661/

Sounds like a nothing burger. "Gateways" at two sites but still nothing between the levees. "nothing between the levees." I don't know if it's our terrible city leadership that is braindead, or the army corps that is braindead, but parks can be designed to flood. Especially a nature park. Why not make it a giant nature park with walkways that are built like small bridges that can be above the floodwaters? Why is this so hard? Parks can be more than just playground equipment and sidewalks. A nature park would be perfect. Nature floods.

25 years later and still a big zero.

"They're still raising money and there's no promised completion date yet..." I hate myself for watching that clip.

There will never be a version of this park built that comes close to the voter-approved vision, and that's just fine. If Dallas wants a transformative world-class vanity project, plan something that's actually feasible.

My vote goes to a Barton Springs style pool in front of the White Rock Bath House that extends over the lake so people can "swim there again" or hang out in rentable cabanas. Maybe it looks more like a Crystal Lagoon. It would be a massive success mostly enjoyed by locals, with the added benefit of symbolically correcting the racial injustice of segregated pools of the past.

$30-$50M to build tops, including a full art deco restoration, with half of it easily raised through a bond program.

I think that's a pretty cool idea - it's kind of sad that the premier lake in the middle of Dallas is so dank and stagnant, and put on the backburner for dredging for decades.

lakewoodhobo wrote:There will never be a version of this park built that comes close to the voter-approved vision, and that's just fine. If Dallas wants a transformative world-class vanity project, plan something that's actually feasible.

My vote goes to a Barton Springs style pool in front of the White Rock Bath House that extends over the lake so people can "swim" there again or hang out in rentable cabanas. Maybe it looks more like a Crystal Lagoon. It would be a massive success mostly enjoyed by locals, with the added benefit of symbolically correcting the racial injustice of segregated pools of the past.

$30-$50M to build tops, including a full art deco restoration, with half of it easily raised through a bond program.

IMG_7570.jpeg

Pretty good idea. i just dont see the white rock NIMBYs going for it. they dont want anything that could possibly attract a crowd into their own private backyard

There's a set of swimming pools at Samuell-Grand that could be explored but there is also a lot of land between Parkdale Lake and Lawnview DART Station to accommodate some loop trail aqueduct project for open water swimming. It could continue west to Juanita Craft health & rec center.

quixomniac wrote:Pretty good idea. i just dont see the white rock NIMBYs going for it. they dont want anything that could possibly attract a crowd into their own private backyard

Spot on. There's a reason that the so-called Runner's Lot has no water fountains, no bathrooms and isn't even paved.

The focus of rewilding the Trinity floodway should be water quality improvement. Half the state's population gets drinking water from this river, so it should be the cleanest river in the state.

Mnemosyne

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BrtO8kPdl ... MgaWxsaWNo

tamtagon wrote:The focus of rewilding the Trinity floodway should be water quality improvement.

That won't happen with the latest plan.

Matt777 wrote:Sounds like a nothing burger. "Gateways" at two sites but still nothing between the levees. "nothing between the levees." I don't know if it's our terrible city leadership that is braindead, or the army corps that is braindead, but parks can be designed to flood. Especially a nature park. Why not make it a giant nature park with walkways that are built like small bridges that can be above the floodwaters? Why is this so hard? Parks can be more than just playground equipment and sidewalks. A nature park would be perfect. Nature floods.

It was always about a toll road. When the toll road idea was killed, so was the idea of a park. The park idea was always just a placeholder.

I guess the good news is that there is no tollroad. The bad news is that there will not be a signature park between the levees. At least not this generation. Maybe a future generation will build a park between the levees. We as contemporary Dallasites failed to deliver. It's your fault and my fault as citizens for not stripping the reigns of those driving the wagon.

Taking the "signature park" out of the floodway is the best thing that could have happened. It needs to be accessible wilderness.

tamtagon wrote:Taking the "signature park" out of the floodway is the best thing that could have happened. It needs to be accessible wilderness.

Easy fix: Seed-bomb inside the levees with milkweed and create an unparalleled oasis for the Monarch butterflies that already migrate through Dallas. Guaranteed twice-a-year tourist attraction Spring and Fall as Monarchs pass by each direction. Maybe add other plants and wildflowers to attract pollinators. Then don't do much of anything. Less is more, which Dallas can't seem to do well at all. Creates a unique park that isn't going to be found on the same vast scale anywhere else. Saves on mowing and maintenance, is completely natural, and shouldn't reduce flood capacity much versus the existing grass, I wouldn't think, so the Corps might even be okay with it.

OrangeMike wrote:

tamtagon wrote:Taking the "signature park" out of the floodway is the best thing that could have happened. It needs to be accessible wilderness.

Easy fix: Seed-bomb inside the levees with milkweed and create an unparalleled oasis for the Monarch butterflies that already migrate through Dallas. Guaranteed twice-a-year tourist attraction Spring and Fall as Monarchs pass by each direction. Maybe add other plants and wildflowers to attract pollinators. Then don't do much of anything. Less is more, which Dallas can't seem to do well at all. Creates a unique park that isn't going to be found on the same vast scale anywhere else. Saves on mowing and maintenance, is completely natural, and shouldn't reduce flood capacity much versus the existing grass, I wouldn't think, so the Corps might even be okay with it.

Just need to buy this native seed mix in bulk and we've got a stew goin.
Of course rewilding is a very meticulous process requiring the rooting out the invasives that have taken hold, but it's so worth it and I have to imagine doable within this space. The city should reach out to the lady bird johnson wildflower center, get a joint effort going with the experts in this stuff.