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Trinity River Park

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 27 Nov 2020 18:43

tamtagon wrote:Build a tunnel similar to the $200 million Mill Creek project to allow the rapid movement of overfill beyond the levee zone, a nice string of wetland cells from Joppa to Wilmer to Ennis and beyond equivalent to an medium reservoir like Grapevine lake or even larger. Sequester the vernal flood in these wetland cells and during in the dry months the much cleaner water can be windmill pumped upstream and released near the confluence of the Elm and West Forks.


Trinity River at Flood stage: 30-50+ feet deep, 1+ miles wide.

Mill Creek Tunnel: 30 foot diameter

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tamtagon
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby tamtagon » 27 Nov 2020 22:02

^because the flashflood water has no way to get downstream, it backs up. Duh

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casperitl
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 03 Dec 2020 08:54

Sounds like the Trinity Local Government Corporation has a number of problems with their contractor the Trinity Park Conservancy based on their latest meeting found here:
https://dallastx.swagit.com/play/11202020-693

Long meeting but the latter half of it, especially the last twenty minutes, has some interesting commentary regarding failures to adhere to the contract, lack of transparency and a need to basically start over from scratch.

Seems very odd that the contractor hired by the Trinity Local Government Corporation is the one calling all the shots and refusing to be transparent. The Trinity Local Government Corporation should be the one in charge since it's public land.

The Trinity Local Government Corporation let all this get away from them and they have no one to blame but themselves. Their fault for letting a contractor with a very public bad record screw with them like this.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 03 Dec 2020 14:23

Continued cluster-f*&k part 12 return of the Trinity curse.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

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CTroyMathis
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby CTroyMathis » 14 Dec 2020 16:10

The really old trestle bridge sections that remain on both sides of the river are now currently getting demolished. Seems the south side must be the first stage of demolition and then they move on to the north side where it's mostly the wooden construct.

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undefinedprocess
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby undefinedprocess » 02 Feb 2021 10:34

Front page of DMN today, oh boy.
"Tony Moore, who has overseen Tulsa’s riverfront project since 2016, will become the conservancy’s president and CEO, the job that local architect Brent Brown vacated last March."
Thoughts..?

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/commentary/2021/02/02/you-thought-it-would-never-happen-with-a-new-boss-dallas-trinity-park-aims-to-break-ground-next-year/

Tnexster
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tnexster » 02 Feb 2021 12:07

I went to take a look at the Tulsa project, some great shots on Google Maps and it looks really nice and obviously well used. Extensive use of native plants and lots of trees. Hope he can make that happen here.

How about that land bridge?

Image

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MC_ScattCat
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby MC_ScattCat » 02 Feb 2021 15:28

This project could really change Dallas in so many ways. I can't wait for it to be Dallas' central park.

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THRILLHO
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby THRILLHO » 02 Feb 2021 17:35

It's too bad the mix master keeps the Trinity from being fully interwoven with Dallas' urban fabric.

This news does make me optimistic for the project overall though.

DPatel304
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby DPatel304 » 02 Feb 2021 20:53

THRILLHO wrote:It's too bad the mix master keeps the Trinity from being fully interwoven with Dallas' urban fabric.


The Design District could make it happen seeing as how it fronts the Trinity River and also has the Turtle Creek (and Trail) to the north.

I'm honestly surprised that area hasn't exploded more.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 03 Feb 2021 00:35

They have an actual river.

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undefinedprocess
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby undefinedprocess » 03 Feb 2021 00:57

Can anyone summarize what the Army Corps of Engineers is actually doing with the Trinity?
Tulsa actually recently announced (I believe) that there’d be a new dam built to help maintain the presence of higher water levels in the river near downtown so it’s usable for recreational activities, plus, you know, looks nice. Is that just not a possibility with the Trinity by downtown? Have always wished the river was flanked by development a little more, similar to other cities with rivers running through their cores.

Sorry if ignorant but... Wondering. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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casperitl
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 03 Feb 2021 09:26

More important than anything else flying under the radar is that the East Overlook has now moved a considerable distance from the Dawson Jail site at 106 Commerce up the levees to the Margaret Hunt Hill Bridge area. That's a big move and shift that has not been discussed yet in Trinity LGC meetings. I'm a little surprised.

To answer the question in a post above: The Corps of Engineers has complete control of the Dallas Floodway. They are the regulatory agency responsible for it under federal law.

From what I understand the current "construction" plans are only for the overlooks. If you are hoping for something to be actually built in the floodplain between the levees you will be sorely mistaken and sad. It is not happening. Unless of course someone donates 100 million dollars or more. O&M funding also needs to be in place for that project and it will be very expensive to clean the mud and storm debris off of park amenities after every flood event.

This is now a real estate development project and nothing more. If you think the deliverable is a public park you are wrong. It's a real estate and economic development vehicle that benefits a handful of people. Prove me wrong. I dare you.

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Cbdallas
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Cbdallas » 04 Feb 2021 15:26

I will accept anything they can do and get done between the bridges and hope they get real estate up and down on both sides of the Trinity. The utilization and monetization of that place is almost zero so anything would be better than nothing at this point.

DPatel304
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby DPatel304 » 04 Feb 2021 16:10

I'm perfectly happy with this being about Real Estate Development. All I would like to see is a nice boardwalk between the bridges and a lot of development lining said boardwalk.

It would be nice to have something the size of Central Park, but we really just don't have the need for anything of that size, so I'm totally fine with the portion between the levees being left as is.

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quixomniac
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby quixomniac » 04 Feb 2021 16:27

casperitl wrote:From what I understand the current "construction" plans are only for the overlooks. If you are hoping for something to be actually built in the floodplain between the levees you will be sorely mistaken and sad. It is not happening. Unless of course someone donates 100 million dollars or more. O&M funding also needs to be in place for that project and it will be very expensive to clean the mud and storm debris off of park amenities after every flood event.


As I understand, the trinity river conservancy renderings suggest there will be landscaping done inside the levees, with the overlook parks being the first part of that step as shown in their cross section renderings. It isnt entirely clear what they expect to do with the sidechannels, in terms of water features, but it basically looks like a slightly nicer version of Trammel Crow.

Along those lines, theyve long planned for "lakes" but theyre basically shallow ponds comparable to the one at Trammel Crow. Idk if those are still part of the plan, again, the renderings are cross section.

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MC_ScattCat
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby MC_ScattCat » 05 Feb 2021 09:16

Doesn't the Army Corps want to redo this area any to improve water flow and flooding mitigation? Having grown up in St. Louis surrounded by large rivers the Trinity feels more like a creek. I don't fully understand why such a huge flood plain was built, but seems like an area ripe for a re-do.

Playing fantasy land I'd love to see more trees. The lack of trees makes it look ugly in my opinion. I get debris and trash can get into trees and bushes causing issues. I never noticed after floods in Missouri an increase in debris though (not counting major floods). I also wish they would add more bike trails like oak park nature preserve.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 05 Feb 2021 10:41

MC_ScattCat wrote:I don't fully understand why such a huge flood plain was built, but seems like an area ripe for a re-do.


Image

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casperitl
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 05 Feb 2021 13:27

DPatel304 wrote:I'm perfectly happy with this being about Real Estate Development. All I would like to see is a nice boardwalk between the bridges and a lot of development lining said boardwalk.

It would be nice to have something the size of Central Park, but we really just don't have the need for anything of that size, so I'm totally fine with the portion between the levees being left as is.


Yeah, maybe a road too, connecting all the private development together that would go around Downtown using public property. To be fair, the city could find wheeler dealer real estate advocates and offer hiring a private company to manage the road and to be super fair charge a small fee for those wanting to use it. Like a toll road. But....to keep it "park like" the city and their real estate friends could call it a parkway, because, it's a park. The Trinity Tollroad. Never been dun befo'.

Seriously though at this point with all these different people hiring relatives and sliding real estate development deals between these governmental and non-profits why not just drop the park idea and focus their energies on kicking out the poor folks and building what they want. Which is ultra luxury high priced real estate over the backs of POC. Couple decades from now KERA can do a documentary about La Bajada, Los Altos and The Bottoms like they have done with Little Mexico and State Thomas. Wring your hands and wash your hands of it all. It's the Dallas way.

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electricron
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby electricron » 06 Feb 2021 23:11

What the Corps of Engineers wish to see on the Trinity River, and why.
http://nrcsolutions.org/dallas-texas/#: ... nelization.
"Following the devastating floods of 1990, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers decided to take a combined approach to floodplain mitigation. This plan, called The Chain of Wetlands, is part of a larger Dallas Floodway Extension (DFE) project to improve infrastructure and prevent future flooding. The Chain of Wetlands Project can be separated into two sections: The Upper Chain and The Lower Chain. The Lower Chain is complete, while the Upper Chain Project is ongoing."

A chain of wetlands is not real estate developments, sporting activity parks, tollways, everyone keeps recommending within the floodway.
All those other projects will never get the USACOE approval, so stop recommending them!

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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 08 Feb 2021 15:02

What people don't realize is the reason its so big is the amount of water that flows through there would ruin billions of dollars of real estate if we start messing with the wrong parts of the system currently in place and it could potentially kill lots of people if not maintained correctly. It floods a few times a year levee to levee and tons of mud and debris is freshly deposited every time. The Trinity River used to sway back and fourth so the water moved differently through the area but we went in there decades ago and tried to make it better. Now we want to mess around again and "fix" it so we can pretend its the same as Central Park in New York City.

Central Park isn't the best example of a public space when you look at the entire history of it so I am quite tired of using it as a the poster child for a grand and darling public space we should model ourselves after. Stealing land, kicking people out during a depression and building a fictitious natural element in the middle of the city that was based in almost no natural ecology of the land is a big part of its history but sure lets do that.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

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quixomniac
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby quixomniac » 08 Feb 2021 19:22

Yes. Of course its important to do flood control correctly. Safety first.
But why is it so much to expect a little creativity?!
Literally anything other than what we have would be an improvement.
Loop the trinity skyline trails at least!
That way, you are not stuck on one side of the river, depending on where you start.

In Tokyo, they have underground tunnel/cisterns you can visit when they are empty.
They turned their infrastructure into a place people want to take pictures
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electricron
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby electricron » 08 Feb 2021 23:23

quixomniac wrote:Yes. Of course its important to do flood control correctly. Safety first.
In Tokyo, they have underground tunnel/cisterns you can visit when they are empty. They turned their infrastructure into a place people want to take pictures

I do not see anything but an empty cistern in that photo under Tokoyo. What creativity?
You can go down to the Trinity River and wade across it most of the year, canoe or raft down it others, and jet ski on it during floods. Do you really need a 10 feet wide concrete sidewalk/bike-path to enjoy it with a camera? Do you have two feet, two legs, bug spray, and the willingness to hike over terrain?

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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 09 Feb 2021 09:57

Dallas has giant drainage tunnels too they have videos online of them as well. In fact we just built a massive one across east Dallas that drains into the lower Trinity. They also buried some of our creeks in tunnels and the LA River is also very photographic cue Grease Lightning and they are trying to fix that one as well.


They key point there is a reason the Trinity is as it is today. I am tired of trying to turn it into some mystical innovative urban city park in a flood zone. We passed a bond in the 90's and we got two bridge wasteful bridges and some actual flood improvements that most people will never notice which is a good thing.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

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MC_ScattCat
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby MC_ScattCat » 09 Feb 2021 10:26

I'd be happy with more trees. It's just like a big ugly grass line. Maintenance wise it's easy (which is probable the point) but in the summer it's hot and more shade along the river and paths would be nice. It doesn't have to central park there is more an opportunity than what they have currently I feel.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 09 Feb 2021 11:27

From my earlier post at the top of this page:

Trinity River at Flood stage: 30-50+ feet deep, 1+ miles wide.

Mill Creek Tunnel: 30 foot diameter

DPatel304
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby DPatel304 » 09 Feb 2021 12:07

MC_ScattCat wrote:I'd be happy with more trees. It's just like a big ugly grass line. Maintenance wise it's easy (which is probable the point) but in the summer it's hot and more shade along the river and paths would be nice. It doesn't have to central park there is more an opportunity than what they have currently I feel.


Would adding trees be any more maintenance? I realize if you wanted them to be nicely groomed and all of that they probably would be, but just letting the area run wild seems just as low maintenance.

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electricron
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby electricron » 09 Feb 2021 12:21

MC_ScattCat wrote:I'd be happy with more trees. It's just like a big ugly grass line. Maintenance wise it's easy (which is probable the point) but in the summer it's hot and more shade along the river and paths would be nice. It doesn't have to central park there is more an opportunity than what they have currently I feel.

More recent photos of recent floods.
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/EWAT40/texas- ... EWAT40.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Y8mKTslOK-w/ ... dallas.jpg

https://www.iweathernet.com/wxnetcms/wp ... 02x452.png

And this is more like what the USACE wants
https://www.swf.usace.army.mil/Portals/ ... 16x540.jpg

Just remember, everything you spend money on now to put down there can be washed away or damaged beyond repair on the very next flood, which could be next week, next month, next year away.

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MC_ScattCat
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby MC_ScattCat » 09 Feb 2021 14:57

Out of curiosity. How polluted is the river? I feel if you get in the water you will turn into the three eyed fish from the Simpsons.

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quixomniac
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby quixomniac » 09 Feb 2021 17:46

electricron wrote:I do not see anything but an empty cistern in that photo under Tokoyo. What creativity?
You can go down to the Trinity River and wade across it most of the year, canoe or raft down it others, and jet ski on it during floods. Do you really need a 10 feet wide concrete sidewalk/bike-path to enjoy it with a camera? Do you have two feet, two legs, bug spray, and the willingness to hike over terrain?


If it is not appealing to you, that doesnt mean it isnt appealing to others.
That particular example is a new cistern built to maintain water levels.
Inspite of its lack of history, there is a visitor center there. because people want to visit!
Cisterns are giant empty spaces, used for concerts, shooting movies, etc.
There are many examples of cisterns being tourist attractions, Here's the Basilica Cistern in Turkey.
basilica-cistern-istanbul.jpg


And no one is realistically suggesting that we are going to replace the river with a giant tunnel.
And no one is demanding we built a Cistern exactly like in Turkey or paris.
Just some creativity, other than patchwork remodeling on an idea that was cutting edges in the 1930s!

And yes, I have 2 feet and bug spray, so I can hike. At that point i might as well drive 2-3 hours away for a proper hike instead of me walking thru a flat ditch.
But that isnt the point. ITs about lowering the barrier of entry for recreation.
Think of a family with kids going biking at White Rock Lake.
Its exceedingly popular even during this pandemic, part of which due to a concrete path,
A full loop around the lake, with plenty of access points with parking.
The trinity river can be more popular than White rock! I see a good amount of bikers all the time.

And we are starting to see some of that today. Trammel Crow parking lot is full every day.
The Pedestrian Bridge next to the calatrava brdige is full all the time. Parking is full all the time.
So yes, all the bling is helping, the demand has always been there, and there is demand for more.
Some easy fixes would make what is already there more functional.
There is a concrete path down from the levee/pedestrian bridge on one shore of the river.
Another concrete path on the other side of river would complete the loop.
A 2nd parking lot on that side would lessen the crowd on the other side of the river.
Concrete paths down from the levees at every major bridge intersection would be ideal.
That way you wouldnt have to drive/bike to the existing ones and clog them up.
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quixomniac
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby quixomniac » 09 Feb 2021 18:03

electricron wrote:
And this is more like what the USACE wants
https://www.swf.usace.army.mil/Portals/ ... 16x540.jpg

Just remember, everything you spend money on now to put down there can be washed away or damaged beyond repair on the very next flood, which could be next week, next month, next year away.


If this is what the USACE wants or says is acceptable, then i'm all for it.
It's what most people on the forum have been expecting for a while now.
DF_BalancedVision_716x540.jpg

Nobody is expecting Disneyland between the levees.
Adding meanders to the river would help speed up water out of the flood plain.
It also makes it more visually interesting compared to the current straight shot we have.
Small lakes/ponds and paths, the basic building blocks found at Trammel Crow.
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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 09 Feb 2021 18:16

electricron wrote:Just remember, everything you spend money on now to put down there can be washed away or damaged beyond repair on the very next flood, which could be next week, next month, next year away.

Well obviously, no one is proposing to build Crystal Palace in the Trinity.
There's so many good examples of architecture and design that incorporates into Flooded areas. Tiered elevation around the river could be done, and be done in style..The US Corps of engineers aren't designers. So of course they're going to show some basic ass design for what is acceptable. However, there's a medium in between good sustainable design and flood prevention.

Take a look at this amazing architecture for flood prone areas. I don't see why we can't do the same here.

https://architizer.com/blog/inspiration ... d-defense/

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ajderry2017
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby ajderry2017 » 10 Feb 2021 00:30

Saw this on Fox 4 yesterday. That over look park near the train tracks is new to me
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quixomniac
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby quixomniac » 10 Feb 2021 14:21

ajderry2017 wrote:Saw this on Fox 4 yesterday. That over look park near the train tracks is new to me


Nice find. It looks like a video followup of their press release
With the pivotal donation of land at 505 Riverfront for the East Overlook, all of the land that is needed for the overlooks will be acquired. Additionally, a memorandum of understanding is in place, and the Conservancy will begin working through design on the East Overlook throughout 2021 with the potential for groundbreaking in mid-2022. Both the East and West Overlooks will be situated above and outside of the levees making them visible on the east and west sides of the river and will include park amenities such as playgrounds, cafes, performance spaces, etc.

https://trinityparkconservancy.org/jour ... mons-park/

I also noticed there is no mention of any work in between the floodway.
Either they don't have a finalized design or there isnt any work to be done?
They curiously removed any images or references to floodway work
Except for this hydrology study.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VflDrj5 ... e=youtu.be

The main point he was trying to make is interesting.
The reason floodway fills up is because the water is moving too slow.
It doesnt build up from the main river out, but rather from the flat plains in.
It just sits there until the water elevation rises and then moves slowly out.
This is dangerous. which is why their studies suggest it is better to build hills and valleys.
To create channels within the floodway to move water out faster
and create more opportunities for recreation.

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casperitl
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 11 Feb 2021 13:30

^ Memorandum of Understanding with who? Not the City of Dallas or Trinity LGC. Is it with the private landowner I guess or the Corps of Engineers? Weird press release as it says a number of things that really are not happening in the real world. It says nothing and offers the chance for your mind to reach a conclusion.

The KDFW interview says they are a little over half way to their funding goal which basically means they have raised no new money in a long time.

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casperitl
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 11 Feb 2021 13:32

quixomniac wrote:
electricron wrote:

Nobody is expecting Disneyland between the levees.


Actually, that is exactly what has been promised for a decade now. Big time fancy Disney.


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