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Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 16 Sep 2019 08:37
by Sburres
Read Jim Schutze article and the city as spent the entire 246 in bond funds approved by the voters in 98.
The city spent $20 million on lakes. Which is crazy becuase we have no actual lakes other than the flood overflow which were free. $50m were spent of the hopeless Trinity toll road, and we all know how that turned out. We could have spent $70m to rewild the entire area, expanding bike lanes and adding trails.
It looks as if the majority of the money was given to engineers or contractors. A lot of the money went to Halff & Associates for endless plans and studies.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 17 Sep 2019 17:37
by PonyUp13
The lack of any progress in the last five years really blows my mind.
I showed up at SMU a ten years ago and I feel like between 09-14 we had measurable changes (MHH Bridge, Continental bridge, overlook, Skyline Trail) but other than killing the highway there hasn’t been hardly anything in the 15-19 stretch (in the “core” section of the river).
Does the private entity now in charge have any reporting requirements to the city?
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 17 Sep 2019 17:57
by Tivo_Kenevil
PonyUp13 wrote:The lack of any progress in the last five years really blows my mind.
I showed up at SMU a ten years ago and I feel like between 09-14 we had measurable changes (MHH Bridge, Continental bridge, overlook, Skyline Trail) but other than killing the highway there hasn’t been hardly anything in the 15-19 stretch (in the “core” section of the river).
Does the private entity now in charge have any reporting requirements to the city?
They've been busy demolishing dangerous rapids and neglecting Horses in a Barn.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 18 Sep 2019 08:16
by Sburres
PonyUp13 wrote:The lack of any progress in the last five years really blows my mind.
I showed up at SMU a ten years ago and I feel like between 09-14 we had measurable changes (MHH Bridge, Continental bridge, overlook, Skyline Trail) but other than killing the highway there hasn’t been hardly anything in the 15-19 stretch (in the “core” section of the river).
Does the private entity now in charge have any reporting requirements to the city?
There communication is better, however, the amount of money they are dumping into these mock ups and presentations is blowing my mind. I have asked them multiple questions on the approval and have been assured the rumors are not true. At this point, no one on this project has proven themselves trustworthy.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 23 Sep 2019 16:31
by casperitl
Trinity LGC cancelled their last meeting on September 13, 2019 and they had not met previously since May 2019. Even that meeting lasted a scant 20 minutes and offered no detail.
September 19, 2019 has now come and gone. September 19th was the date upon which the rest of the $40 million gift was to be decided upon. That date passed without any news. In 2016 and 2017, the September 19, 2019 date was a very important one on the calendar. Not any more I guess.......
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 24 Sep 2019 09:37
by exelone31
Friends, I'm starting to think this whole Trinity River thing may never happen.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 24 Sep 2019 11:07
by Tivo_Kenevil
exelone31 wrote:Friends, I'm starting to think this whole Trinity River thing may never happen.
I gave up in it years ago.
Side note, Can the citizens sue the city for not delivering on what the voters approved on a ballot back in '98?
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 24 Sep 2019 15:39
by cowboyeagle05
I would say hire Angela Hunt but I think many people have soured on her since then.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 24 Sep 2019 16:39
by exelone31
cowboyeagle05 wrote:I would say hire Angela Hunt but I think many people have soured on her since then.
From:
https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2017/12/12/valley-view-center-and-the-plan-to-revive-the-area-is-in-shambles/ about the Valley View development. I believe she is not the attorney for Beck anymore, but still...
The Becks, who are still trying to make some coin off their dead mall, clearly thought otherwise. I asked Scott Beck about the suit, but he deferred comment to his new zoning attorney, former Dallas City Council member Angela Hunt. So I asked her if the Becks see any irony in going to court to stop demolition of the mall. She did not.
"I get the attraction of the narrative device regarding the demolition, but without a development agreement in place, the Becks really didn't have an alternative," she said via email. "They've got an operating mall with a big hole blown out the side of it. They've got to protect their asset."
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 25 Sep 2019 07:27
by casperitl
Tivo_Kenevil wrote:exelone31 wrote:Friends, I'm starting to think this whole Trinity River thing may never happen.
I gave up in it years ago.
Side note, Can the citizens sue the city for not delivering on what the voters approved on a ballot back in '98?
It will be a generation or two before Dallasites will have the resolve to push for turning the Trinity River into more of the amenity it should be. The current batch of civil servants, consultants and other interests need to disappear first. That takes the rest of their natural lives for that to happen.
The 1998 bonds were completely squandered. Sad how that all happened and how it was all avoidable.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 26 Sep 2019 13:02
by cowboyeagle05
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Rawlings plan was to privatize this thing to let it die on purpose. One way to kill a public project is to toss it into the "market" and Rawlings knew enough to know the dead horse was long dead much like those in the Trinity Horse Park.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 27 Sep 2019 08:17
by casperitl
For me it is really interesting to see the stark realities of project components versus what leadership of said developments end up pushing to symposiums, catered lunches and business groups. It's a false narrative being told. No reality to it.
It fascinates me that those who were huge advocates and champions of the Trinity Tollroad, Standing Wave and other failed ideas are still around pushing new agendas. Who gives these individuals a platform is likely more interesting than the mouthpieces themselves.
The other thing that has happened is the City Council and some of the city staff were never exposed to all the debate and problems of these projects. The result is the loss of the institutional memory inside City Hall. That means the same failures are destined to repeat themselves.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 07 Oct 2019 16:43
by casperitl
https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/ren ... t-11772485Missing In Action is the Trinity Local Government Corporation who took the summer off and never returned. Lots of questions in the article that should be answered in short fashion by the Trinity LGC. The LGC was put in place to ask questions and get answers on behalf of the citizenry of Dallas. They are failing at their job.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 08 Oct 2019 13:55
by Sburres
He brings up some great points for re-wilding.
"Instead, it is a designed landscaping compromise aimed at creating spaces within cities that will help offset climate change and promote biodiversity. At least as important as that, re-wilded urban parks will help urban-dwelling humans comprehend the challenges facing the planet by connecting them with nature."
"Experts who have come here to look at the Trinity as a candidate for re-wilding have said the $47 million left over from the failed toll road scheme would more than pay the initial cost of re-wilding the river. And maintenance costs would be a fraction of what it will cost to dig the elaborate pergolas and fountains proposed for Simmons Park out of the silt after each year’s monsoon flood seasons on the Trinity.
The second may be even more significant in terms of feasibility. The re-wilding plan can be carried out entirely within the approvals already signed off on by the Army Corps of Engineers, which has final say over anything done within the floodway."
So what is stopping us. I have tried to email the conservatory with no reply. I was getting replies (snarky ones) when I was curious about the status after they put on the show. It seems like they spent so much on the parties and the mock ups. Their response was "everything is on track".
I wish we would have one good leader that could work through all this mess. It seems as if they are running around with no plan in place or leadership. Shooting for the moon and hoping it sticks while blowing through all the money on failed attempts and pretty designs.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 09 Oct 2019 09:32
by cowboyeagle05
Death to the Trinity Project long may she never rein for she was doomed at conception!
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 10 Oct 2019 08:21
by casperitl
The exciting part in all this is the failure of the Trinity LGC to provide transparency to the Citizens of Dallas. The previous City Council formed the LGC due to previous issues of transparency regarding NGOs working on Trinity River projects. The LGC should be dissolved if it holds no functional value to citizens in the transparency process. The transparency issues can go back to the full City Council where the members of the council can get raked across the coals again and again every time the Trinity comes up for debate.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 10 Oct 2019 14:29
by Cbdallas
Can't we just do some really nice tree plantings all between the two bridges and along the new trail paths that would bloom in the spring and change colors in the fall. Surely that could be done until we can come up a longer term plan or if we never do then at least it will be pretty and inviting down there in front of downtown and the bridges. Very little money and a beautiful site year round. Could probably even be a community effort.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 11 Oct 2019 10:25
by casperitl
Cbdallas wrote:Can't we just do some really nice tree plantings all between the two bridges and along the new trail paths that would bloom in the spring and change colors in the fall. Surely that could be done until we can come up a longer term plan or if we never do then at least it will be pretty and inviting down there in front of downtown and the bridges. Very little money and a beautiful site year round. Could probably even be a community effort.
The Record of Decision by the Corps of Engineers and the Balanced Vision Plan allows for many hundreds of trees to be planted between the levees and inside the floodway. Unfortunately, the path forward for this is blocked in some odd way by NGOs who feel they have first right of refusal when it comes to planning and design. Essentially, the Trinity River is being held hostage by a small group of people that once were the strongest advocates for the Trinity Tollroad. Actually, they are still the big advocates for a tollroad and would love to see it happen.
Transparency with the public is important. Especially in regards to interfacing with the City of Dallas. Odd questions have arisen as to why an NGO tasked with building a park inside the floodplain would start purchasing real estate outside of their tasked project area. The State Jail purchase needs to be explained and understood in a way that can viewed as a path forward to a park. Obviously there are plans behind closed doors that the public is not aware of nor will be privy to in the near future. The LGC can ask those questions in a public forum and hopefully get a straight answer back.
The LGC was setup as a safeguard. The odd tactics, closed door meetings and general lack of trust that developed between the public and certain private interests was not to be a problem in the future. The LGC was built to insure that. Now, not so much.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 14 Oct 2019 11:03
by Sburres
casperitl wrote:Cbdallas wrote:Can't we just do some really nice tree plantings all between the two bridges and along the new trail paths that would bloom in the spring and change colors in the fall. Surely that could be done until we can come up a longer term plan or if we never do then at least it will be pretty and inviting down there in front of downtown and the bridges. Very little money and a beautiful site year round. Could probably even be a community effort.
The Record of Decision by the Corps of Engineers and the Balanced Vision Plan allows for many hundreds of trees to be planted between the levees and inside the floodway. Unfortunately, the path forward for this is blocked in some odd way by NGOs who feel they have first right of refusal when it comes to planning and design. Essentially, the Trinity River is being held hostage by a small group of people that once were the strongest advocates for the Trinity Tollroad. Actually, they are still the big advocates for a tollroad and would love to see it happen.
Transparency with the public is important. Especially in regards to interfacing with the City of Dallas. Odd questions have arisen as to why an NGO tasked with building a park inside the floodplain would start purchasing real estate outside of their tasked project area. The State Jail purchase needs to be explained and understood in a way that can viewed as a path forward to a park. Obviously there are plans behind closed doors that the public is not aware of nor will be privy to in the near future. The LGC can ask those questions in a public forum and hopefully get a straight answer back.
The LGC was setup as a safeguard. The odd tactics, closed door meetings and general lack of trust that developed between the public and certain private interests was not to be a problem in the future. The LGC was built to insure that. Now, not so much.
Thanks for this explanation. This makes a lot of sense. It seems that a plan had been decided on and then they hit a wall. I hope that the NGO will have to answer to someone on this. It seems as if the group is using the money for their own self interest. Is this not something the city could sue for? The money put up for this project was paid partially by the people of the city.
Also, the damn toll road. I don't understand how the toll road could even be an option still up for debate. Hasn't it been proven to fail?
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 14 Oct 2019 15:44
by cowboyeagle05
Honestly all highways and stadiums and arenas have been proven to fail in more ways than one yet here we are building them over and over with more and more public funding. They aren't failures however for the people that benefit from the peripheral effects. People who own land near a new highway or the land previously unvalued until a stadium needs excessive parking etc. They walk away with tons of profits.
The people that truly want the tollway are those people who want it because they see value in selling land for another highway access project. Whether that highway actually pays for itself through tolls or is actually needed to create true economic worth and solve a need in traffic reduction is not of their concern.
Transportation planners proved decades ago that Highway/car-based economic development costs more than it creates in taxes and overall economic growth. Looks great on a colorful rendering until you actually crunch the numbers but Americans think a new drive-thru Starbucks and highway office tower with jobs pays the bills for the roads, parking lots, traffic lights highway access ramps, maintenance, etc. It never has and never will but commercial developers/builders make money on the short-term development so incentives keep flowing and politicians keep collecting votes cause voters love a new Ikea and Starbucks.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 15 Oct 2019 00:59
by sterling
Cbdallas wrote:Can't we just do some really nice tree plantings all between the two bridges and along the new trail paths that would bloom in the spring and change colors in the fall. Surely that could be done until we can come up a longer term plan or if we never do then at least it will be pretty and inviting down there in front of downtown and the bridges. Very little money and a beautiful site year round. Could probably even be a community effort.
Far too reasonable. Nature can't be the point. It's not bold, brash, "in your face" artificial enough. Not Pritzker material enough. I suspect when the inevitable highway is finally built, someone will have an idea to build a deck park over it, with a Calatrava-esque ski ramp down to the river. Of course, we'll all be dead by then.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 18 Oct 2019 10:52
by Tnexster
Cbdallas wrote:Can't we just do some really nice tree plantings all between the two bridges and along the new trail paths that would bloom in the spring and change colors in the fall. Surely that could be done until we can come up a longer term plan or if we never do then at least it will be pretty and inviting down there in front of downtown and the bridges. Very little money and a beautiful site year round. Could probably even be a community effort.
Great plan! I have advocated doing as little as possible for a long time. Let nature be nature and you'll build a world class draw without even trying. It would take so little to deliver so much. Really scares me to think how much damage the city will do trying to create something that ought not be created.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 21 Oct 2019 23:43
by Hannibal Lecter
^ It's funny how for years I was berated here for saying it was stupid to waste tens of millions of dollars on a park in a drainage ditch.
Just call me Cassandra.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 22 Oct 2019 11:43
by cowboyeagle05
Exhaustion makes for strange bedfellows and lord knows many of us tried to hold a candle for this project but Mayor Rawlings's lack of leadership was the final straw for me.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 28 Oct 2019 08:07
by casperitl
Trinity LGC met October 25th:
https://dallastx.swagit.com/play/10252019-618Odd that the agenda was not followed. Odd that virtually nothing regarding Harold Simmons Park was discussed. Nothing of any substance was discussed other than things far outside the LGC's sphere of influence. The Lamar and Cadillac Heights levees are not part of the LGC's project area.
Amazing that they are not hiding the fact anymore that there is complete vertical integration of the city staff, LGC and Trinity Park Conservancy. There should be clearly defined separation of roles and governance.
Park is not happening anytime soon. That's the takeaway from the latest meeting. Some excuses started to surface if you watch the video.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 02 Jan 2020 18:14
by quixomniac
Any updates?
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 06 Jan 2020 10:14
by casperitl
quixomniac wrote:Any updates?
Private fundraising did not meet their goal. As a result the deadline was extended. The question becomes one of if the Trinity LGC is now in violation of it's own contracts and rules set forth with the City of Dallas in regards to raising the money. One of the LGC members brought this up at the last meeting and they had to go into executive session to iron it out. No news on whether or not they were in violation. Would likely need to go back to the Dallas City Council again for re-approval.
It was not supposed to happen this way. If you were not worried in the past you should be now.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 06 Jan 2020 11:16
by Sburres
It seems as though there were ulterior motives behind the park. A lot of time and money spent on a dead end. They could still salvage the entire project with the little amount of money they have left but they will probably spend it on more land to farther fill the pockets of the Dallas elite.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 09 Jan 2020 21:31
by Tnexster
When was the original bond election? 1998? It's been so long I can't remember for sure. It's also been long enough that I sort of thing they should stop trying.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 21 Jan 2020 08:11
by Sburres
I got this update in my email. I think everyone is really wanting an update and this seems like some bs.
https://trinityparkconservancy.org/jour ... t-toolkit/
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 21 Jan 2020 08:58
by muncien
I was considering bringing out community activist Bull Sh*t Bingo card for this one...
Perhaps they should focus on the PARK...
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 21 Jan 2020 16:34
by Tnexster
They don't have anything to talk about....lol.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 22 Jan 2020 08:00
by Sburres
muncien wrote:I was considering bringing out community activist Bull Sh*t Bingo card for this one...
Perhaps they should focus on the PARK...
Agree 100%. I would rather see no news than see this bs. We are spending money to make a new plan? THE COMMUNITY WANTS A PARK! Drop all the fancy crap and lets just get trails, plant trees, and clean up the river. It appears as if now they want to use the funds as community outreach. I saw something on instagram where they are going to senior centers and polling to see how they want the funds to be used. It's been 10 years! If we don't have a grasp on what to do by now, I think we should just call the project a wash.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 22 Jan 2020 10:40
by casperitl
Hopefully this is not a stall tactic. Citizens were promised an accelerated groundbreaking and construction of a park.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 23 Jan 2020 11:17
by Sburres
casperitl wrote:Hopefully this is not a stall tactic. Citizens were promised an accelerated groundbreaking and construction of a park.
I hope you are right! I haven't seen anything yet that makes me believe that's true.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 23 Jan 2020 15:09
by cowboyeagle05
Also, see how they tied it into the purchase of the Jail site... It sounds like them making up a reason after the purchase of land they don't need for their mission. What is our mission statement, build a park no it's to discuss ongoing effects of a lack of parks in our communities. Next up we will have a speaker engagement series on the need for quality parks to create healthy communities oh and next month we will do a retrospective on the history of parks in communities. Oh, now we can hire an artist to capture the art of parks on canvas which we will show at White Rock Lake for the next 6 months where we will have suggestion boxes in East Dallas, you know the most affected community.
Sorry, I must have leaked their entire plan for the Trinity River BS Annual Report.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 24 Jan 2020 14:26
by Cbdallas
At this point just have a bunch of Drones fly over between the two bridges and dump wildflower seeds in the entire basin. At least it would be pretty and some great photo opps until something can get going.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 24 Jan 2020 19:18
by quixomniac
Cbdallas wrote:At this point just have a bunch of Drones fly over between the two bridges and dump wildflower seeds in the entire basin. At least it would be pretty and some great photo opps until something can get going.
Haha thats actually a great idea, Im sure it wouldnt even cost that much.
I'd counter it should be a community thing. Every year, 100+ people get in between the levees and hand plant as many native flowers as they can. and then later come spring, they reap the beauty of their work.
Then more people will want to volunteer next year. etc. etc. etc.
It plays on the vanity of the instragrammers of Dallas. Think of all the likes!
People already do this with bluebonnets on highways and Richardson has a wildflower program that fills the sides of roads with colorful wildflowers every spring. It should be obvious and easy.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 26 Jan 2020 17:39
by cowboyeagle05
Its called Seed Bombing and there is already a very active community in Dallas. Usually, they get together and create seed bombs that contain natural wildflower seeds and soil which you easily throw into areas and the seeds spread germinate as long as its the right time of year. Its a fairly simple process but making the seed bombs is a fun activity for sure and doing the Trinity would take a lot of seeds but you get the right people engaged a lot of work could be done by volunteers for sure.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 28 Jan 2020 08:34
by casperitl
I have yet to see an area along the Trinity where "seedbombing" has produced any results. The effort of 100 volunteers at one of these events produces less than zero results the next spring.
Better to use a tractor with a disc or seed drill to cover a larger area. That was successful in an area a couple hundred yards from the Commerce Street Viaduct Overlook around 10 years ago.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 28 Jan 2020 10:02
by The_Overdog
'Wildflowers' are actually surprisingly hard to establish and maintain. They need pretty specific conditions or they won't grow. I'd imagine that dropping seeds on the ground wouldn't have a real high success rate.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 28 Jan 2020 16:50
by quixomniac
casperitl wrote:Better to use a tractor with a disc or seed drill to cover a larger area. That was successful in an area a couple hundred yards from the Commerce Street Viaduct Overlook around 10 years ago.
Any information on that event?
It looks like Richardson's costs $1000 per acre and they do about 100 acres.
https://www.cor.net/departments/parks-r ... bloom-townAnd The_Overdog is correct, they need to use herbicide, mow, clear grass, irrigate, and finally rotate them.
Harold Simmons is 200 acres, so 2x of Richardson, or $200k per year.
That's more than I thought, but at least we'd have something.
Picture this, but instead of random patches, everywhere, specially along the levees.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 28 Jan 2020 21:19
by Tnexster
I've seen lots of flowers down there before so something must work from time to time. I don't really know what would survive the floods.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 29 Jan 2020 10:16
by casperitl
Native wildflowers occur for miles up and down the floodway between the levees. If given a correct mowing cycle they can flourish. The photos someone posted above are of native wildflowers, seeded on their own naturally. The only exception are the bluebonnets in one photo that were seeded by humans specifically for that photo op.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 29 Jan 2020 15:20
by Sburres
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 30 Jan 2020 10:13
by cowboyeagle05
The Trinity Project alone helps keep my own liberal values in check a constant reminder of why I am also a conservative.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 30 Jan 2020 11:53
by skeets
Not sure if this belongs in this thread but couldn't find a Campion Trail thread so... They are building a pedestrian bridge over the Trinity River to expand Campion Trail. The bridge is inside Trinity View Park just inside Irving, inside the levy underneath Irving Blvd. Not sure when this will all be complete as it has already flooded completely once this year.
Trinity View Bridge.jpg
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 30 Jan 2020 12:55
by soco
If this is the correct project that bridge is actually spanning the Elm Fork and is part of a City of Dallas project to extend the Trinity Skyline Trail and connect to the Campion in Irving. It is part of the much larger Dallas to Forth Worth or Fort Worth to Dallas Trail, depending on which side of the region you are on.
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 31 Jan 2020 15:47
by Tnexster
Why a century’s worth of Dallas’ history will soon be destroyed between the Trinity River leveesThe landmark AT&SF railroad trestle bridge, an impediment in the floodway, has to come out
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/comment ... er-levees/
Re: Trinity River Park
Posted: 20 Mar 2020 11:11
by lakewoodhobo
$100 million raised for Harold Simmons Park as Conservancy moves into next phase of Park development.https://trinityparkconservancy.org/jour ... ent-brown/The move comes as the Conservancy has commitments of more than $100 million for the capital campaign to build Harold Simmons Park, halfway to the $200 million goal. Walter Elcock, currently secretary of the Board of Directors of the Conservancy, will serve as interim president and CEO while the Board conducts a search for the next leader of the organization.