Trinity River Park

[casperitl]

So....they only raised half the money they committed to raising and also did not meet their contract deadline with the City of Dallas. How is this a good thing. In addition their director resigned.

No news of building out the actual park just the overlooks that will tie into private land development owned largely by the non-profit or members of their board.

[tamtagon]

Maybe more of the old tollroad stalwarts will resign and we can get on with a wilderness park. Building overlooks that enhance adjacent properties is fine with me; graft will always be a problem but no matter what happens between the levees, river bottom adjacent private properties need to be developed guided by the pedestrian mobility into the park. The overlooks will be popular and there's little choice but design around walkers and bike riders.

I think the entire length of the river between levees should be a managed wilderness designed to clean the water, become home to the greatest biodiversity in the region, and entirely accessible by foot.

[cowboyeagle05]

I assumed Brent Brown wouldn't last he is an upstanding guy who actually cares about community engagement but The Trinity Conservancy is about making sure whatever happens to the Trinity benefits developers and private landowners to the highest levels.

[casperitl]

Interesting story from Jim Schutze on the non-profit contracted by the Local Government Corporation to build a park like amenity in the floodplain.

https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/mor ... y-11910221

Seems their ideas are vastly different than that of building a park. Economic development, TIFs and issuance of debt to name a few.

[cowboyeagle05]

Nice read and honestly even if you saw this play as just an innovative way to pay for the park the reality is historical context plus the secrecy of this group has to be taken into account. If they city were to create a TIF like board for a Trinity Park and a whole new slew of people would be a part of it and meetings were public I'd say sure lets try it. The reality is histrionically any group that's been in charge of the Trinity River Project has been malicious self-serving and flat out lairs at every turn. Disband the group and put the sick horse down turn it into glue and be done with it.

TIF boards are not innocent groups outside of the Trinity context and depending on who you talk to they are the devil or a cities best friend. Introducing the Trinity Park into any traditionally bureaucratic organizational developmental tool seems to act like nitro to an already illegal street race, historically speaking. What I am reading is it sounds like it will take another 10-20 years to kill off the last parts of the Trinity Project delusion.

[Zmitz]

The Trinity Park Conservancy...and its lead project designer, Michael Van Valkenburgh Architects, have settled on a preliminary design for a large overlook park on top of the west levee, straddling Commerce Street. The conservancy has begun a national search for a “visionary architect” to “reimagine” the Jesse R. Dawson State Jail. The conservancy envisions it as a “visual anchor and hub” for the future park and also “a place of healing” for those coming and going to the adjacent Dallas County justice complex across Commerce Street.

Architects submitting for the job must have their applications in to the conservancy by July 23. A selection will be chosen from a group of finalists by Aug. 7. There will be no public review...Plans, meanwhile, have progressed considerably further on the West Overlook. A preliminary conceptual plan for the West Overlook of the Trinity Park, which would straddle Commerce Street between Beckley Avenue and the Trinity levee wall. The Conservancy has estimated its cost at roughly $45 million.

The signature feature of the south side will be a maze garden and a large “over/under” playground with customized elements — slides, tunnels — embedded into the landscape, all linked by meandering, shaded paths. The north end will have more programming, including a cafe with roof deck; a civic plaza with an interactive water feature; a separate playground for water-based play with toy bridges and other quirky features; a swing area set into a ridged landscape with views of downtown and the levee; and a small theater, inspired by the German playground designer Günter Beltzig, that can be used for puppet shows, performances, classes, and other play.

These projects do not interfere with the approval process for the Army Corps of Engineers’ $300 million Trinity improvement project.

https://www.dallasnews.com/arts-entertainment/architecture/2020/07/10/say-goodbye-to-the-ugliest-building-in-dallas/

[DPatel304]

This is exactly the type of project I was hoping would happen, I really hope this one does come to fruition!

I feel like the pedestrian Bridge is excessive and unnecessary. I'd rather see people just utilize the existing crosswalk which is actually pretty well built as is.

[exelone31]

Cheeky move, DMN. Make me sign up for the email newsletter to access the story, then block me again because it contains "Member Only" content. Clever.

Anywho, this looks awesome and I hope that it comes to fruition. It seems like the best way to get to a revamp of the Trinity is for several of these smaller projects to be successful first.

[DPatel304]

Say goodbye to the ugliest building in Dallas — and hello to new playgrounds along the Trinity
The former Jesse R. Dawson State Jail (center) at 106 West Commerce Street near downtown Dallas is pictured at sunset, Tuesday, July 7, 2020. The plain brown building is going to be renovated as part of a radical makeover and redevelopment of the Trinity River into a park.

https://www.dallasnews.com/arts-enterta ... in-dallas/

[tamtagon]

So, it looks like the real estate development cartel aka Trinity Park Conservancy has finally given up trying to put a programmable park between the levees; It only took 30 years. The city can match donations and develop a handful of strategically located parks outside the levees and aim for the real estate development boom similar to what Klyde Warren Deck Park brought to the Arts District adjacent land.

And, the Trinity River flood plane can become a managed wilderness giving the City that very elusive natural beauty component constantly overlooked by the real estate development crowd because a river doesn't have the same punch as a mountain or ocean view. If Dallas and Tarrant Counties manage to create a congruous swath of land between the two downtowns that is allowed to grow back to near virgin wilderness..... whatever

[Tnexster]

I'd like to see what they come up with for that concrete structure. Could they add floors to it? Windows, balconies and a few more floors might make it a desirable place to live. That parking lot on the east side has to go tho, that thing is pathetic.

[DPatel304]

I'm not really sure what could be done to it, but I would think it would definitely need some windows. With all the high-end apartments being built today, perhaps this could be converted into a more budget-friendly urban living option instead?

[Tnexster]

I'm not really sure what could be done to it, but I would think it would definitely need some windows. With all the high-end apartments being built today, perhaps this could be converted into a more budget-friendly urban living option instead?

Budget friendly overlooking the river or a fantastic downtown view. Interesting thought, I wonder if that is being considered.

[DPatel304]

Budget friendly overlooking the river or a fantastic downtown view. Interesting thought, I wonder if that is being considered.

Lol yeah, you'd get some killer views. I was only saying it could be 'budget' friendly in case there were units without windows or the units were small in size.

Of course this really depends on the current state of the building and what the interior looks like. I'm sure if it were feasible to convert this into another high-end residential it would be done (and I would support that). But if that would just not be feasible and involve too much time/money, then having a more budget-friendly development would be nice for a change.

[quixomniac]

A makeover for the ugliest building in Dallas

The latest reason for concern is the selection, announced Thursday, of the architecture firms Weiss/Manfredi and Malone Maxwell Dennehy for the remaking of the decommissioned Jesse R. Dawson State Jail. New York-based Weiss/Manfredi will be the lead designers on the project, with Malone Maxwell Dennehy local partner.

https://www.dallasnews.com/arts-enterta ... in-dallas/

Comes with a nice sketch, hopefully it stays true to their vision.

AS5L6U5NQ5DK3FBY35M4D4RQ7Q (1).jpg

[Tivo_Kenevil]

Why can't we just scrap it? It's ugly.

[THRILLHO]

I like the sketch. I can see the potential there, and it embodies a philosophy any future development near the Trinity should have: wide open pedestrian access to the levee. A line of developments with a similar element (and no silly roadway standing in the way) would be great. Just re-wild the Trinity and we'd have the urban green space Dallas deserves.

[cowboyeagle05]

You need demand for re-development and so far all the parking that surrounds the former Jail the Conservancy owns has proposals for lots of flashy development but there is no desire by companies to locate offices to land squeezed between the County Jail, Stemmons/Mixmaster, Dealey Plaza and the Levees. Surprise access to the highway didnt induce demand here... Build a another QT and call it a day and require a percentage of sales go to programming to help those trapped by our justice system inequality. Stop pouring my tax money down the drain on supporting any Project in the Trinity.

[Matt777]

A makeover for the ugliest building in Dallas

The latest reason for concern is the selection, announced Thursday, of the architecture firms Weiss/Manfredi and Malone Maxwell Dennehy for the remaking of the decommissioned Jesse R. Dawson State Jail. New York-based Weiss/Manfredi will be the lead designers on the project, with Malone Maxwell Dennehy local partner.

https://www.dallasnews.com/arts-enterta ... in-dallas/

Comes with a nice sketch, hopefully it stays true to their vision.

AS5L6U5NQ5DK3FBY35M4D4RQ7Q (1).jpg

This is awesome in so many ways. Both symbolically, and as a way to provide a gateway to the (eventual) Trinity River park or nature area. The naysayers here need to take a giant chill pill.

Not only will this provide a cool, unique park feature (That will probably end up famous and a must see tourist spot), it will also provide an public elevated view of the skyline. Right now, high end residential and office towers have amazing views of the city but there's not really a free publicly accessible way to experience that. Dallas doesn't have mountains, so this will provide a way for all citizens to experience that, given that the upper levels will be accessible.

[casperitl]

This is awesome in so many ways. Both symbolically, and as a way to provide a gateway to the (eventual) Trinity River park or nature area. The naysayers here need to take a giant chill pill.

Not only will this provide a cool, unique park feature (That will probably end up famous and a must see tourist spot), it will also provide an public elevated view of the skyline. Right now, high end residential and office towers have amazing views of the city but there's not really a free publicly accessible way to experience that. Dallas doesn't have mountains, so this will provide a way for all citizens to experience that, given that the upper levels will be accessible.

I am almost to the point where I can say "It's all fake". Almost there. Almost. As a critical "naysayer" I am batting a perfect .1000 in baseball terms over the past 20 years with being spot on when it comes to failed projects.

If you are interested in really exploring the subject you should look at the business deals between Trinity LGC board members and Trinity Park Conservancy Board members. Some of them are in bed together with these projects and stand to make millions for themselves and close family members. I have been doing my own research on this issue and have connected numerous dots together that make me feel troubled with any project going forward.

I know what is happening. Shame on them for doing what they are doing behind the curtain of what they are projecting in public forums.

[MC_ScattCat]

Man this park needs to happen. Both sides are of the park would explode with development once this is started.

[tamtagon]

If you are interested in really exploring the subject you should look at the business deals between Trinity LGC board members and Trinity Park Conservancy Board members.

At this point, maybe the whole 10,000 acres should be turned over to the Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission.

[casperitl]

Man this park needs to happen. Both sides are of the park would explode with development once this is started.

Where would all the residents go who live there now?

I think these park developers should come clean and admit this park scheme is just a way to enrich themselves, their close friends and their family members. Just flat come out and own it that this whole thing is a taxpayer funded get rich(er) scheme. Put the burden on the taxpayer through bonds and levying taxes.

No one reading this would ever be able to afford to live in the places they want to build.

[MC_ScattCat]

There isn't anyone living there now? It's all light industrial or the jail. Only thing not for sale (that I know of) in this area is the jail and oak cliff glass. Most of the area that's not residential along Beckley or between 30 and Singleton is for sale already as well.

I don't know about all the shady business deals you're mentioning. You seem to know more about that stuff than I do. I'm just saying a great park there would make this city much more attractive to visit/live in.

[cowboyeagle05]

If you are interested in really exploring the subject you should look at the business deals between Trinity LGC board members and Trinity Park Conservancy Board members.

At this point, maybe the whole 10,000 acres should be turned over to the Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission.

This 200%

I would say make it a federal park of some sort since camping was once mentioned as a good idea for the more rural parts but I doubt the current administration would take on the project at this point.

[casperitl]

There isn't anyone living there now? It's all light industrial or the jail. Only thing not for sale (that I know of) in this area is the jail and oak cliff glass. Most of the area that's not residential along Beckley or between 30 and Singleton is for sale already as well.

I don't know about all the shady business deals you're mentioning. You seem to know more about that stuff than I do. I'm just saying a great park there would make this city much more attractive to visit/live in.

The west approach will be the first side built. It will displace hundreds of low income families with higher property taxes. The west approach will be built largely with public federal dollars at direction of private entities to enhance private nearby properties. Easy to understand. It's a real estate play, this "park" thing. It is being foisted upon the taxpayer by a group of people who have failed at every single project along the Trinity that they have been involved with.

[casperitl]

If you are interested in really exploring the subject you should look at the business deals between Trinity LGC board members and Trinity Park Conservancy Board members.

At this point, maybe the whole 10,000 acres should be turned over to the Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission.

This 200%

I would say make it a federal park of some sort since camping was once mentioned as a good idea for the more rural parts but I doubt the current administration would take on the project at this point.

You have to walk carefully even suggesting a federal park of some kind would be a good idea. A former write-in Dallas mayoral candidate wants to do something like that -only- if he can have complete control over it and charge admission to public areas. I find it outlandish someone would monetize the Trinity in such a way. Most out of touch thing I have ever heard. Unfortunately that persons ideas makes the rounds among the business commmunity at luncheons and the like. Pure idiocy.

[cowboyeagle05]

I know what you mean Casper and believe throwing it from one governmental entity to another is against some serious values of mine but the municipal level has continued to ruin it with the help of we will call them "private donors" so previously crazy options are on the table.

[MC_ScattCat]

The west approach will be the first side built. It will displace hundreds of low income families with higher property taxes. The west approach will be built largely with public federal dollars at direction of private entities to enhance private nearby properties. Easy to understand. It's a real estate play, this "park" thing. It is being foisted upon the taxpayer by a group of people who have failed at every single project along the Trinity that they have been involved with.

Isn't this already happening? Everything from the DART Red Line going north & Hampton going east is being gentrified. All the light industrial is being replaced with apartments. Like I said before almost everything minus the paint plant, USPS complex, and OC Glass is for sale. Plus you have Kessler Park millionaires and those ugly mansions on the hill overlooking Sylvan Thirty.

Ultimately if we had a Central in NYC or Forrest in STL sized park I think it would be a great to really make DFW world class.

[I45Tex]

ATL is about to redo an even larger downtown prison, also from the mid-1990s.
https://www.archpaper.com/2020/08/cente ... a-feature/

But here's a non-paywall photo of the 2020 sketch of ours:

https://www.archpaper.com/2020/08/weiss ... k-project/

[casperitl]

^ That has nothing to do though with building an actual park. The TPC was supposed to build a park between the levees. That's not happening. I find it super weird that the TPC has created their own development corporation as well that is chartered with the state. Why would a 501c3 non profit tasked with building a park between some levees also create a separate development corporation.

[electricron]

^ That has nothing to do though with building an actual park. The TPC was supposed to build a park between the levees. That's not happening. I find it super weird that the TPC has created their own development corporation as well that is chartered with the state. Why would a 501c3 non profit tasked with building a park between some levees also create a separate development corporation.

Excellent question, and the answer is very easy to solve. Parks require residents to use just like transit requires riders to use. They go hand to hand with each other. Property closer to a park is worth more because residents refer living next to a park. The most expensive residences in New York City are very near Central Park. Why are you surprised supporters of a charity advocating and building a park are also interested in real estate developments? Just like auto dealerships support highway expansion, they go hand to hand together. Just like some here advocate DART co-operate better to build residential complexes instead of parking lots near their train stations. They go hand to hand with each other - and by the way, so do parking lots.

If you believed the only interest of these park supporters willing to help the city build the park near the river was their love of nature and wildlife, I know of a bridge you can buy. They also like earning a living and profiting from their work, just like you.

[Cbdallas]

The thing is that even with the building and cost of living around the park could be higher everyone still will have access to it just like Central Park in NYC and KWP Dallas. Build baby Build.

[casperitl]

^ That has nothing to do though with building an actual park. The TPC was supposed to build a park between the levees. That's not happening. I find it super weird that the TPC has created their own development corporation as well that is chartered with the state. Why would a 501c3 non profit tasked with building a park between some levees also create a separate development corporation.

Excellent question, and the answer is very easy to solve. Parks require residents to use just like transit requires riders to use. They go hand to hand with each other. Property closer to a park is worth more because residents refer living next to a park. The most expensive residences in New York City are very near Central Park. Why are you surprised supporters of a charity advocating and building a park are also interested in real estate developments? Just like auto dealerships support highway expansion, they go hand to hand together. Just like some here advocate DART co-operate better to build residential complexes instead of parking lots near their train stations. They go hand to hand with each other - and by the way, so do parking lots.

If you believed the only interest of these park supporters willing to help the city build the park near the river was their love of nature and wildlife, I know of a bridge you can buy. They also like earning a living and profiting from their work, just like you.

You don't understand what is happening. Using your DART analogy, imagine if the DART Board members were selling DART all their buses,trains, bus stop shelters and uniforms. Can't do that under the law. Plus the DART management were working side deals to own parking lots and privatizing the parking at DART Stations like Mockingbird Station. That's what is happening on the Trinity River in Dallas. Entities with stalking horses are holding real estate and then using their own positions on boards to regulate their own construction, public funding that they control on the public side etc.

Very easy to see that more than a couple people will go to federal prison over this if it continues down the road. Theft of public money will be their downfall as it's the easiest to prove.

The City of Dallas in their charter already has laws against all of this. Unfortunate these laws are not followed.

[casperitl]

The thing is that even with the building and cost of living around the park could be higher everyone still will have access to it just like Central Park in NYC and KWP Dallas. Build baby Build.

Sad to see you are advocating against the working class multi-generational families who live there now and are cheering for gentrification.

Harold Simmons Park, which is not actually a park, will be closed often for paid private events. In order to be a park, the Parks and Recreation Department would need to have control of it through the Park Board. The water department will have control over it like all the other disasters they manage(d).

[Cbdallas]

I am advocating for Dallas to become more dense in and all around the general downtown area. I am against suburban sprawl and low density housing in the urban parts of Dallas. DFW is growing so fast that change is coming no matter what, I would just like to see Dallas be the true go to urban heart of the metro. If we block that from happening it will move elsewhere and we will not keep up in the future.

[MC_ScattCat]

[/quote]Sad to see you are advocating against the working class multi-generational families who live there now and are cheering for gentrification.[/quote]

As someone who lives in these neighborhoods that train left the station. I've seen 5 light industrial businesses or used car dealers on or just off Commerce leave in the last few months. All these apartments being built or about to be built are also adding to the gentrification. Add the fact there are almost million dollar homes being built all around west Dallas it's only going to get worse. The park will only accelerate this trend, but its already started. I enjoy the diverse neighborhoods we have here, and I hope to keep it this way somehow. I'd love to be able to have a central park type park here in Dallas to go to. I just wish they had more trees in the park layouts for the hot summers.

[casperitl]

I am advocating for Dallas to become more dense in and all around the general downtown area. I am against suburban sprawl and low density housing in the urban parts of Dallas. DFW is growing so fast that change is coming no matter what, I would just like to see Dallas be the true go to urban heart of the metro. If we block that from happening it will move elsewhere and we will not keep up in the future.

It must still make you tear up a little that the tollroad was never built.

[Cbdallas]

Was never for the toll road. I just want all of inner Dallas to eventually become a very dense tall urban area.

[Hannibal Lecter]

^ The current residents be damned?

[electricron]

You don't understand what is happening. Using your DART analogy, imagine if the DART Board members were selling DART all their buses,trains, bus stop shelters and uniforms. Can't do that under the law. Plus the DART management were working side deals to own parking lots and privatizing the parking at DART Stations like Mockingbird Station. That's what is happening on the Trinity River in Dallas. Entities with stalking horses are holding real estate and then using their own positions on boards to regulate their own construction, public funding that they control on the public side etc.
Very easy to see that more than a couple people will go to federal prison over this if it continues down the road. Theft of public money will be their downfall as it's the easiest to prove.
The City of Dallas in their charter already has laws against all of this. Unfortunate these laws are not followed.

It is not unlawful for a board member, council member, or worker to earn money privately, working for or owning shares in a company doing business with government or an agency including DART.
DART board members regularly excuse themselves from discussions and votes to avoid conflict of interests - but if the vote goes favorably, those board members could earn profits. They are not required by law to quit the board entirely, just to excuse themselves from votes and discussions when that conflict of interests arises.

An auto dealership owner can join DART’s board or win an election to the city council. Whenever DART or the city decides to buy cars, trucks, etc. the dealership is allowed to join in the bidding process, but the owner must excuse themself from the process choosing which bid wins. Never-the-less, if the dealership wins the bids and makes the sell, the owner is allowed to earn any profits the dealership makes.

[Thymant]

I noticed what seems to be a major trail expansion on the Trinity river bed on the East Side of the river. The new trail is fully paved and stretches from the Hampton Ave bridge to the Westmoreland Ave bridge. Currently it still appears closed but contains what appears to be at least three small weathered steel pedestrian bridges. I am not sure if this was a trail expansion was announced but it appears to be almost be complete.

[DPatel304]

I noticed what seems to be a major trail expansion on the Trinity river bed on the East Side of the river. The new trail is fully paved and stretches from the Hampton Ave bridge to the Sylvan Ave bridge. Currently it still appears closed but contains what appears to be at least three small weathered steel pedestrian bridges. I am not sure if this was a trail expansion was announced but it appears to be almost be complete.

That's a nice surprise, I'll have to go check it out for myself sometime.

This is exactly the type of development I want to see in the Trinity River area. We just need to keep it simple, create some nice, paved trails that form a loop where people can run/walk/bike with some nice skyline views in the background. That would be enough to start bringing people into the area, and the park can be expanded as it gains more foot traffic.

[tamtagon]

Too frequently we hear about the ways Dallas is at a disadvantage because there's no beach or mountains, lumping outdoor activity opportunities into a 'nothing to do there' group of boring places. But what Dallas has is different, and forever, the people in charge of making the Trinity River channel a destination do not recognize the value of a river - that the best use of the land is a highway. That thinking is just wrong. Rewilding the Trinity River through downtown will be the single most beneficial action toward improving quality of life in Dallas there is to make.

[I45Tex]

Let's keep the ferocious rewilded mosquitoes from spilling over the levee and flooding downtown though!

[DPatel304]

(I was standing about here when I took the picture: https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7904213 ... a=!3m1!1e3)

I took a quick trip to the park to see it for myself, and the trail is looking great! Since the sign was there, I didn't want to actually walk on the trail myself, but it looks pretty much complete, and I could see the pedestrian bridges in the distance (which looked mostly complete as well).

I had no idea this was being worked on, so this was definitely a nice surprise!

[DPatel304]

I also took some other pictures from the Trammel Crow Park while I was there. It's crazy to me that this park isn't really that well known given how wonderful the views are from here!

[THRILLHO]

I was just there Saturday! Walking the trail really reaffirmed my desire to rewild the river. Past the statues and past the pond, the trail should be lush with natural plant life. Instead it just feels like a neglected soccer field.

I was thinking the park could really benefit from a viewing outlook attached to the east side of the sylvan avenue bridge. The view from up there would be great, and a staircase could be built connecting to the parking area directly below it.

Also, the park could use a little attention

[cowboyeagle05]

Well the rule for a awhile now has been keep the grass mowed and free of debris to let the flood waters fill and recede without impedance. Every rendering of parks has included lots of lush plant life instead of just mowed grassland. I have never seen the Army Corps of Engineers fully endorse these lush park ideas. They tend to be pretty straight forward on making sure flooding and draining are the primary functions since people lives and homes are at stake. I too want winding paths and lush prairie greenery not mowed down for acres and acres and some more trees if all possible but I have never been comfortable that the Army Corp would truly approve of such things. The Trinity flood zone was built for one purpose and that was an attempt of a utilitarian drainage ditch to save more urban land for stable development around a constantly flooding river. At this point we should be glad its not a concrete ditch like the LA river, which they are attempting to fix too but requires a massive rethinking how to handle water and make it pretty.

[tamtagon]

We could certainly have a world class series of elevated lush smorgasbord parks throughout the flood channel if an underground flash flood drainage and cistern-catacomb system is installed. Build a tunnel similar to the $200 million Mill Creek project to allow the rapid movement of overfill beyond the levee zone, a nice string of wetland cells from Joppa to Wilmer to Ennis and beyond equivalent to an medium reservoir like Grapevine lake or even larger. Sequester the vernal flood in these wetland cells and during in the dry months the much cleaner water can be windmill pumped upstream and released near the confluence of the Elm and West Forks.

The river level through the flood channel is maintained mostly constant through out the year. Tabletop parks are scatter through the flood zone, connected by pedestrian/cycling bridges, serving as flash flood intake and the worldclass extravaganza of intensely programed parks (like Clyde Warren) especially dense between the designer bridges. The water is not polluted and it's safe to eat the fish you catch. The river is winded through the flood channel to return environmental diversity and the whole thing becomes a wilderness destination appealing the people throughout the Americas, Europe and Asia.