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Trinity River Park

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Sburres
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Sburres » 16 Sep 2019 08:37

Read Jim Schutze article and the city as spent the entire 246 in bond funds approved by the voters in 98.
The city spent $20 million on lakes. Which is crazy becuase we have no actual lakes other than the flood overflow which were free. $50m were spent of the hopeless Trinity toll road, and we all know how that turned out. We could have spent $70m to rewild the entire area, expanding bike lanes and adding trails.
It looks as if the majority of the money was given to engineers or contractors. A lot of the money went to Halff & Associates for endless plans and studies.
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PonyUp13
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby PonyUp13 » 17 Sep 2019 17:37

The lack of any progress in the last five years really blows my mind.

I showed up at SMU a ten years ago and I feel like between 09-14 we had measurable changes (MHH Bridge, Continental bridge, overlook, Skyline Trail) but other than killing the highway there hasn’t been hardly anything in the 15-19 stretch (in the “core” section of the river).

Does the private entity now in charge have any reporting requirements to the city?

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 17 Sep 2019 17:57

PonyUp13 wrote:The lack of any progress in the last five years really blows my mind.

I showed up at SMU a ten years ago and I feel like between 09-14 we had measurable changes (MHH Bridge, Continental bridge, overlook, Skyline Trail) but other than killing the highway there hasn’t been hardly anything in the 15-19 stretch (in the “core” section of the river).

Does the private entity now in charge have any reporting requirements to the city?


They've been busy demolishing dangerous rapids and neglecting Horses in a Barn.

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Sburres
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Sburres » 18 Sep 2019 08:16

PonyUp13 wrote:The lack of any progress in the last five years really blows my mind.

I showed up at SMU a ten years ago and I feel like between 09-14 we had measurable changes (MHH Bridge, Continental bridge, overlook, Skyline Trail) but other than killing the highway there hasn’t been hardly anything in the 15-19 stretch (in the “core” section of the river).

Does the private entity now in charge have any reporting requirements to the city?


There communication is better, however, the amount of money they are dumping into these mock ups and presentations is blowing my mind. I have asked them multiple questions on the approval and have been assured the rumors are not true. At this point, no one on this project has proven themselves trustworthy.

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casperitl
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 23 Sep 2019 16:31

Trinity LGC cancelled their last meeting on September 13, 2019 and they had not met previously since May 2019. Even that meeting lasted a scant 20 minutes and offered no detail.

September 19, 2019 has now come and gone. September 19th was the date upon which the rest of the $40 million gift was to be decided upon. That date passed without any news. In 2016 and 2017, the September 19, 2019 date was a very important one on the calendar. Not any more I guess.......

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exelone31
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby exelone31 » 24 Sep 2019 09:37

Friends, I'm starting to think this whole Trinity River thing may never happen.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 24 Sep 2019 11:07

exelone31 wrote:Friends, I'm starting to think this whole Trinity River thing may never happen.


I gave up in it years ago.
Side note, Can the citizens sue the city for not delivering on what the voters approved on a ballot back in '98?

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 24 Sep 2019 15:39

I would say hire Angela Hunt but I think many people have soured on her since then.

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exelone31
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby exelone31 » 24 Sep 2019 16:39

cowboyeagle05 wrote:I would say hire Angela Hunt but I think many people have soured on her since then.


From: https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2017/12/12/valley-view-center-and-the-plan-to-revive-the-area-is-in-shambles/ about the Valley View development. I believe she is not the attorney for Beck anymore, but still...

The Becks, who are still trying to make some coin off their dead mall, clearly thought otherwise. I asked Scott Beck about the suit, but he deferred comment to his new zoning attorney, former Dallas City Council member Angela Hunt. So I asked her if the Becks see any irony in going to court to stop demolition of the mall. She did not.

"I get the attraction of the narrative device regarding the demolition, but without a development agreement in place, the Becks really didn't have an alternative," she said via email. "They've got an operating mall with a big hole blown out the side of it. They've got to protect their asset."

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casperitl
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 25 Sep 2019 07:27

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
exelone31 wrote:Friends, I'm starting to think this whole Trinity River thing may never happen.


I gave up in it years ago.
Side note, Can the citizens sue the city for not delivering on what the voters approved on a ballot back in '98?


It will be a generation or two before Dallasites will have the resolve to push for turning the Trinity River into more of the amenity it should be. The current batch of civil servants, consultants and other interests need to disappear first. That takes the rest of their natural lives for that to happen.

The 1998 bonds were completely squandered. Sad how that all happened and how it was all avoidable.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 26 Sep 2019 13:02

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Rawlings plan was to privatize this thing to let it die on purpose. One way to kill a public project is to toss it into the "market" and Rawlings knew enough to know the dead horse was long dead much like those in the Trinity Horse Park.

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casperitl
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 27 Sep 2019 08:17

For me it is really interesting to see the stark realities of project components versus what leadership of said developments end up pushing to symposiums, catered lunches and business groups. It's a false narrative being told. No reality to it.

It fascinates me that those who were huge advocates and champions of the Trinity Tollroad, Standing Wave and other failed ideas are still around pushing new agendas. Who gives these individuals a platform is likely more interesting than the mouthpieces themselves.

The other thing that has happened is the City Council and some of the city staff were never exposed to all the debate and problems of these projects. The result is the loss of the institutional memory inside City Hall. That means the same failures are destined to repeat themselves.

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casperitl
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 07 Oct 2019 16:43

https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/ren ... t-11772485

Missing In Action is the Trinity Local Government Corporation who took the summer off and never returned. Lots of questions in the article that should be answered in short fashion by the Trinity LGC. The LGC was put in place to ask questions and get answers on behalf of the citizenry of Dallas. They are failing at their job.

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Sburres
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Sburres » 08 Oct 2019 13:55

He brings up some great points for re-wilding.

"Instead, it is a designed landscaping compromise aimed at creating spaces within cities that will help offset climate change and promote biodiversity. At least as important as that, re-wilded urban parks will help urban-dwelling humans comprehend the challenges facing the planet by connecting them with nature."
"Experts who have come here to look at the Trinity as a candidate for re-wilding have said the $47 million left over from the failed toll road scheme would more than pay the initial cost of re-wilding the river. And maintenance costs would be a fraction of what it will cost to dig the elaborate pergolas and fountains proposed for Simmons Park out of the silt after each year’s monsoon flood seasons on the Trinity.

The second may be even more significant in terms of feasibility. The re-wilding plan can be carried out entirely within the approvals already signed off on by the Army Corps of Engineers, which has final say over anything done within the floodway."

So what is stopping us. I have tried to email the conservatory with no reply. I was getting replies (snarky ones) when I was curious about the status after they put on the show. It seems like they spent so much on the parties and the mock ups. Their response was "everything is on track".
I wish we would have one good leader that could work through all this mess. It seems as if they are running around with no plan in place or leadership. Shooting for the moon and hoping it sticks while blowing through all the money on failed attempts and pretty designs.
Last edited by Sburres on 09 Oct 2019 15:43, edited 1 time in total.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 09 Oct 2019 09:32

Death to the Trinity Project long may she never rein for she was doomed at conception!

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casperitl
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 10 Oct 2019 08:21

The exciting part in all this is the failure of the Trinity LGC to provide transparency to the Citizens of Dallas. The previous City Council formed the LGC due to previous issues of transparency regarding NGOs working on Trinity River projects. The LGC should be dissolved if it holds no functional value to citizens in the transparency process. The transparency issues can go back to the full City Council where the members of the council can get raked across the coals again and again every time the Trinity comes up for debate.

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Cbdallas
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Cbdallas » 10 Oct 2019 14:29

Can't we just do some really nice tree plantings all between the two bridges and along the new trail paths that would bloom in the spring and change colors in the fall. Surely that could be done until we can come up a longer term plan or if we never do then at least it will be pretty and inviting down there in front of downtown and the bridges. Very little money and a beautiful site year round. Could probably even be a community effort.

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casperitl
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 11 Oct 2019 10:25

Cbdallas wrote:Can't we just do some really nice tree plantings all between the two bridges and along the new trail paths that would bloom in the spring and change colors in the fall. Surely that could be done until we can come up a longer term plan or if we never do then at least it will be pretty and inviting down there in front of downtown and the bridges. Very little money and a beautiful site year round. Could probably even be a community effort.


The Record of Decision by the Corps of Engineers and the Balanced Vision Plan allows for many hundreds of trees to be planted between the levees and inside the floodway. Unfortunately, the path forward for this is blocked in some odd way by NGOs who feel they have first right of refusal when it comes to planning and design. Essentially, the Trinity River is being held hostage by a small group of people that once were the strongest advocates for the Trinity Tollroad. Actually, they are still the big advocates for a tollroad and would love to see it happen.

Transparency with the public is important. Especially in regards to interfacing with the City of Dallas. Odd questions have arisen as to why an NGO tasked with building a park inside the floodplain would start purchasing real estate outside of their tasked project area. The State Jail purchase needs to be explained and understood in a way that can viewed as a path forward to a park. Obviously there are plans behind closed doors that the public is not aware of nor will be privy to in the near future. The LGC can ask those questions in a public forum and hopefully get a straight answer back.

The LGC was setup as a safeguard. The odd tactics, closed door meetings and general lack of trust that developed between the public and certain private interests was not to be a problem in the future. The LGC was built to insure that. Now, not so much.

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Sburres
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Sburres » 14 Oct 2019 11:03

casperitl wrote:
Cbdallas wrote:Can't we just do some really nice tree plantings all between the two bridges and along the new trail paths that would bloom in the spring and change colors in the fall. Surely that could be done until we can come up a longer term plan or if we never do then at least it will be pretty and inviting down there in front of downtown and the bridges. Very little money and a beautiful site year round. Could probably even be a community effort.


The Record of Decision by the Corps of Engineers and the Balanced Vision Plan allows for many hundreds of trees to be planted between the levees and inside the floodway. Unfortunately, the path forward for this is blocked in some odd way by NGOs who feel they have first right of refusal when it comes to planning and design. Essentially, the Trinity River is being held hostage by a small group of people that once were the strongest advocates for the Trinity Tollroad. Actually, they are still the big advocates for a tollroad and would love to see it happen.

Transparency with the public is important. Especially in regards to interfacing with the City of Dallas. Odd questions have arisen as to why an NGO tasked with building a park inside the floodplain would start purchasing real estate outside of their tasked project area. The State Jail purchase needs to be explained and understood in a way that can viewed as a path forward to a park. Obviously there are plans behind closed doors that the public is not aware of nor will be privy to in the near future. The LGC can ask those questions in a public forum and hopefully get a straight answer back.

The LGC was setup as a safeguard. The odd tactics, closed door meetings and general lack of trust that developed between the public and certain private interests was not to be a problem in the future. The LGC was built to insure that. Now, not so much.



Thanks for this explanation. This makes a lot of sense. It seems that a plan had been decided on and then they hit a wall. I hope that the NGO will have to answer to someone on this. It seems as if the group is using the money for their own self interest. Is this not something the city could sue for? The money put up for this project was paid partially by the people of the city.
Also, the damn toll road. I don't understand how the toll road could even be an option still up for debate. Hasn't it been proven to fail?

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 14 Oct 2019 15:44

Honestly all highways and stadiums and arenas have been proven to fail in more ways than one yet here we are building them over and over with more and more public funding. They aren't failures however for the people that benefit from the peripheral effects. People who own land near a new highway or the land previously unvalued until a stadium needs excessive parking etc. They walk away with tons of profits.

The people that truly want the tollway are those people who want it because they see value in selling land for another highway access project. Whether that highway actually pays for itself through tolls or is actually needed to create true economic worth and solve a need in traffic reduction is not of their concern.

Transportation planners proved decades ago that Highway/car-based economic development costs more than it creates in taxes and overall economic growth. Looks great on a colorful rendering until you actually crunch the numbers but Americans think a new drive-thru Starbucks and highway office tower with jobs pays the bills for the roads, parking lots, traffic lights highway access ramps, maintenance, etc. It never has and never will but commercial developers/builders make money on the short-term development so incentives keep flowing and politicians keep collecting votes cause voters love a new Ikea and Starbucks.

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sterling
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby sterling » 15 Oct 2019 00:59

Cbdallas wrote:Can't we just do some really nice tree plantings all between the two bridges and along the new trail paths that would bloom in the spring and change colors in the fall. Surely that could be done until we can come up a longer term plan or if we never do then at least it will be pretty and inviting down there in front of downtown and the bridges. Very little money and a beautiful site year round. Could probably even be a community effort.


Far too reasonable. Nature can't be the point. It's not bold, brash, "in your face" artificial enough. Not Pritzker material enough. I suspect when the inevitable highway is finally built, someone will have an idea to build a deck park over it, with a Calatrava-esque ski ramp down to the river. Of course, we'll all be dead by then.

Tnexster
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Tnexster » 18 Oct 2019 10:52

Cbdallas wrote:Can't we just do some really nice tree plantings all between the two bridges and along the new trail paths that would bloom in the spring and change colors in the fall. Surely that could be done until we can come up a longer term plan or if we never do then at least it will be pretty and inviting down there in front of downtown and the bridges. Very little money and a beautiful site year round. Could probably even be a community effort.


Great plan! I have advocated doing as little as possible for a long time. Let nature be nature and you'll build a world class draw without even trying. It would take so little to deliver so much. Really scares me to think how much damage the city will do trying to create something that ought not be created.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 21 Oct 2019 23:43

^ It's funny how for years I was berated here for saying it was stupid to waste tens of millions of dollars on a park in a drainage ditch.

Just call me Cassandra.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 22 Oct 2019 11:43

Exhaustion makes for strange bedfellows and lord knows many of us tried to hold a candle for this project but Mayor Rawlings's lack of leadership was the final straw for me.

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casperitl
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Re: Trinity River Park

Postby casperitl » 28 Oct 2019 08:07

Trinity LGC met October 25th:
https://dallastx.swagit.com/play/10252019-618

Odd that the agenda was not followed. Odd that virtually nothing regarding Harold Simmons Park was discussed. Nothing of any substance was discussed other than things far outside the LGC's sphere of influence. The Lamar and Cadillac Heights levees are not part of the LGC's project area.

Amazing that they are not hiding the fact anymore that there is complete vertical integration of the city staff, LGC and Trinity Park Conservancy. There should be clearly defined separation of roles and governance.

Park is not happening anytime soon. That's the takeaway from the latest meeting. Some excuses started to surface if you watch the video.


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