Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

DFW is world's second-busiest airport after Atlanta Hartsfield-Jackson

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... the-world/

DFW Airport sets stage to restart work on sixth terminal with new airlines lease
The new pact with American Airlines and others would replace the 2010 use and lease agreement for 10 years, beginning Oct. 1.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... nes-lease/

DMN version

New $1.6 billion terminal at DFW Airport will bring 15 added gates and dozens of flights
American Airlines and DFW International Airport officials came to agreement for $4.8 billion in expansions including a new Terminal F.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... -terminal/

Interesting renderings. Looks like they're not adding any parking garages for this terminal. I think the pandemic has shifted DFW into a top tier international airport now. DFW both city and airport have really weathered that storm better than just about any other. I hope we see more international carriers soon.

Doesn't that layout make it a little more difficult to use the tram?

All these decades of holding on to that space I was half expecting Terminal F to be a new centerpiece of the airport when this is clearly just the new overflow terminal. Looks about as barebones and disposable as could possibly be.

IcedCowboyCoffee wrote:All these decades of holding on to that space I was half expecting Terminal F to be a new centerpiece of the airport when this is clearly just the new overflow terminal. Looks about as barebones and disposable as could possibly be.

Thank you, I thought it was just me. This looks like one of those projects they can manufacture nearby and just roll into place. Think they did that for another terminal expansion recently.

They're economizing when they should be spending.

Tnexster wrote:

IcedCowboyCoffee wrote:All these decades of holding on to that space I was half expecting Terminal F to be a new centerpiece of the airport when this is clearly just the new overflow terminal. Looks about as barebones and disposable as could possibly be.

Thank you, I thought it was just me. This looks like one of those projects they can manufacture nearby and just roll into place. Think they did that for another terminal expansion recently.

It definitely looks like they plan to use the modular construction method they have been using at Terminal C. Also, the rendering looks like it might be accessible only by Skylink; if so, it's really a new concourse, not a new terminal.

This article has a non-photo version of the rendering:
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/tx/dallas-fort-worth/news/2023/05/16/-4-8b-dfw-airport-expansion-plan-includes-construction-of-6th-terminal-

Tucy wrote:It definitely looks like they plan to use the modular construction method they have been using at Terminal C. Also, the rendering looks like it might be accessible only by Skylink; if so, it's really a new concourse, not a new terminal.

I think you're right. There doesn't seem to be enough space for ticketing and security. There is not even enough space for retail/dining because there are gates on every side of the building. I wouldn't expect much beyond a convenience store and maybe a starbucks in that entryway connecting to the skylink.
Speaking of which, that's a hell of an inconvenient distance for the skylink to be from the gates considering every other terminal is directly attached to their skylink station.

Well damn, I hope I never have to fly out of this. This sucks.

Tucy wrote:

Tnexster wrote:

IcedCowboyCoffee wrote:All these decades of holding on to that space I was half expecting Terminal F to be a new centerpiece of the airport when this is clearly just the new overflow terminal. Looks about as barebones and disposable as could possibly be.

Thank you, I thought it was just me. This looks like one of those projects they can manufacture nearby and just roll into place. Think they did that for another terminal expansion recently.

It definitely looks like they plan to use the modular construction method they have been using at Terminal C. Also, the rendering looks like it might be accessible only by Skylink; if so, it's really a new concourse, not a new terminal.

It does look more like a concourse vs a terminal, and modifying into a full terminal in the future could be complicated. If they are going for the linear pier approach, wouldn't it be better to focus Phase 1 on one of the skylink station areas (built out diagonally), eliminating long walks? The other corner could be developed as a Phase 2 pier, and a terminal (ticketing+baggage) could later be added somewhere as a middle connection. This current proposal seems short-sighted.

My guess would be based on this rendering the new terminal F would be for the 737 and A320 mainline planes freeing up all the gates at terminal D for the heavy/super planes. This plus the new piers at A and C could also free up the gates taken at B by mainline planes so they can go back to all regionals at B.

There's a lively discussion about this going on in the forum's discord channel.

This travesty is probably the product of a possibly unethical and possibly illegal collaboration between Dallas Mayor Eric Johnson, Fort Worth Mayor Mattie Parker, DFW Airport management, and American Airlines management to shut out Southwest from ever operating at DFW Airport and to reduce air travel competition for DFW area based flyers. A prime example of putting corporate interests above the citizens they were elected or appointed to serve.

Not going to go through all the reasons in yet another post, but that's what this incomprehensibly bad proposal is all about. Southwest can't expand at Love Field, McKinney voters turned down a bond to build a passenger terminal there, and Fort Worth based AA basically owns that city so we likely won't see an airport open there for usage by SWA, so SWA is basically locked out from any growth in DFW until some random suburb decides to build an airport (unlikely). Southwest can legally expand to any DFW area airport in 2025 without giving up gates at Love, but they can't do that unless there are viable gates to use and set up an operation at a meaningful and profitable scale.

Only having 15 gates in "terminal" F, along with no dedicated check-in, baggage, or security areas, ensures that there's no room for SWA and that it would be difficult to base a new entrant there. This new "terminal" is 100% for AA connecting passengers (and having SWA passengers check in at terminal D and then skylink to terminal F for their flights would probably not appeal to SWA either).

Can't wait to fly out of terminal A on AA, land at terminal F, and skylink to terminal D for my baggage. Oh, and AA can continue to raise prices and gouge DFW based passengers to their heart's content since they've locked out any meaningful competition for the next 30 years. What a mess.

I usually defend AA, but this is sickening. Not surprised, but sickened. Especially by our city "leader."

I don't know about the collusion part, but Matt777's analysis is excellent.

One other point I haven't seen anyone make. Based on the the artwork, you've got a concourse with one SkyLink station, no roadway access and no pedestrian bridges to other terminals. Even the Terminal D extension which was supposed to connect to F is nowhere close. The ultimate single point of failure.

If this is indeed skylink-dependent there's no way they'll end up calling this Terminal F. Surely it will be "Terminal D Satellite" and the gates will be D41-D56, or something like that. That way there would be no room for doubt as to what terminal people need to be driving into/getting dropped off at so they could then be directed to the skylink. The simple problem the airport would face in explaining to people with a Terminal F flight ticket that they have to actually go to any other terminal instead, and expecting them to already know this before they pull into the airport... I just can't see this.
The average person doesn't think about the fact that they can go in through any terminal to reach any other terminal. So, crafting an entire terminal that would be dependent on them knowing this fact seems so boneheaded that I can't imagine it's true.

The skylink dependency is the one thing that has me convinced there is something we are all missing and can't gleam from this side of the artwork. Just thinking about the logistics of a scenario when the skylink goes down and what that would entail, I have to imagine there will indeed be one little hub of security and ticketing and bus access somewhere in this thing.

But yeah, all that in mind, the sheer fact that this is only getting 15 gates while the Terminal C extension is getting 24 all on its own and twice the investment, this is a deeply unserious Terminal F. Like I said, it's overflow. Just something cheap to make some of the connecting flights easier to coordinate I am sure. (Edit: D'oh, got that wrong, it's 24 total, so this is getting 15 and A and C are getting the rest. My bad. I knew that felt off lol)

IcedCowboyCoffee wrote:If this is indeed skylink dependent there's no way they'll end up calling this Terminal F. Surely it will be "Terminal D Satellite" and the gates will simply be D41-D56, or something like that. That way there would be no room for doubt as to what terminal people need to be driving into/getting dropped off at so they could eventually be directed to the skylink. The simple problem the airport would face in explaining to people with a Terminal F flight ticket that they have to actually go to any other terminal instead, and expecting them to already know this before they pull into the airport... I just can't see this.
The average person doesn't think about the fact that they can go in through any terminal to reach any other terminal, so crafting an an entire terminal that would be dependent on them knowing this seems so boneheaded that I can't imagine it's true.

The skylink dependency is the one thing that has me convinced there is something we are all missing and can't gleam from this side of the artwork. Just thinking about the logistics of a scenario when the skylink goes down and what that would entail, I have to imagine there will indeed be one little hub of security and ticketing and bus access somewhere in this thing.

But yeah, all that in mind, the sheer fact that this is only getting 15 gates while the Terminal C extension is getting 24 all on its own and twice the investment, this is a deeply unserious Terminal F. Like I said, it's overflow. Just something cheap to make some of the connecting flights easier to coordinate I am sure. (Edit: D'oh, got that wrong, it's 24 total, so this is getting 15 and A and C are getting the rest. My bad. I knew that felt off lol)

Excellent points. But we have to balance that perfect logic against the DFW desire to tell the world we have six terminals. My guess is the marketing desire outweighs the logic.

If it's just for connecting flights, which would be a logistical wetdream for America airlines, this extension is ideal. Banking flights is too profitable to give up so build the terminal to make it easier for the customer. Won't lower the price for locals.

Yeah, the rendering doesn't make any sense. There seems to be parking on the secure side of airport.

This helps make some sense of their thought process. The chart on projections through 2050 really shows where Love lacks potential for growth in Dallas.

DFW Airport travelers’ top 10 destinations, a forecast for future flyer demand and more
DFW International Airport and American Airlines announced plans for a 15-gate Terminal F, backed by the growth of the hometown carrier.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... is-coming/

"The revamped location is forecasted to become the highest volume sales location of any U.S. airport restaurant with an anticipated annual revenue of $14MM;
... The restaurant, located in Terminal B at Gate 10, will be TGI Fridays' first patio dining airport experience as well as feature one of the largest bars in the airport. The location will also feature a state-of-the-art to-go area called "Fridays on the FlyTM" with a large assortment of food and drinks as well as innovative self-checkout kiosks. The remodel is part of a wider renovation strategy by TGI Fridays. The company has committed $16MM in renovations to be completed within the next two years to their five restaurants currently inside DFW."

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 78478.html

Fort Worth based AA basically owns that city so we likely won't see an airport open there for usage by SWA, so SWA is basically locked out from any growth in DFW until some random suburb decides to build an airport (unlikely). Southwest can legally expand to any DFW area airport in 2025 without giving up gates at Love, but they can't do that unless there are viable gates to use and set up an operation at a meaningful and profitable scale.

Only having 15 gates in "terminal" F, along with no dedicated check-in, baggage, or security areas, ensures that there's no room for SWA

Mayor Johnson can always make a point of pursuing a recommissioning of Hensley Field as a city-owned commercial service facility w/ already built 8000' concrete runway right?

That's a pretty big ace up the city of Dallas' sleeve.

I45Tex wrote:

Fort Worth based AA basically owns that city so we likely won't see an airport open there for usage by SWA, so SWA is basically locked out from any growth in DFW until some random suburb decides to build an airport (unlikely). Southwest can legally expand to any DFW area airport in 2025 without giving up gates at Love, but they can't do that unless there are viable gates to use and set up an operation at a meaningful and profitable scale.

Only having 15 gates in "terminal" F, along with no dedicated check-in, baggage, or security areas, ensures that there's no room for SWA

Mayor Johnson can always make a point of pursuing a recommissioning of Hensley Field as a city-owned commercial service facility w/ already built 8000' concrete runway right?

I'm not convinced the city leadership is on SWA's side. They did not support SWA during their feud with Delta, nor in SWA's efforts to increase capacity at Love Field, and Mayor Johnson seems gung ho about "terminal" F.

AA probably has bigger pockets to make underhanded deals with Dallas city officials over the years. I mean we all know someone paid for John Wiley Price's cars and real estate, and it was not his employment income.... just as an example. Proven, but no jail time... Nobody seems to care to vote these clows out, so the problem gets worse.

There legitimately are lots of north Dallas voters who moved into the flight paths of Love Field expecting never to be hearing any more growth in flights overhead beyond "what it was when they moved there." Not good for the city of course but they are not willing to let the expectations go.

Hensley has somebody else's city limits in the flight paths so it's not a policy loss for Dallas candidates to be associated with a change in that...

Aren't Dallas and Fort Worth under some additional aviation restrictions per the Wright Amendment settlement?

New rendering walk-through of Terminal F.
Looks like we were right about this being for connections only; no signs of a check-in desk or security checkpoint.
Terminal F:
https://news.dfwairport.com/asset/ac78c7a8-0ac7-460d-8b87-65e03f69594e/4e65ac5845d69ddd6c09b4e45bbb7a269d353d0d/?t=1




Glass jet bridges are certainly a choice if that ends up being accurate. The current ones get hot enough already

And new rendering of the Terminal C renovations:
https://news.dfwairport.com/asset/a12c14a9-80e2-4cb6-9a96-582d3751869a/b8f98d9f905ccfaf2d1fd3c8eff446c976a22bdf/?t=1

I wish they would have gone with tearing it down and rebuilding, but it certainly looks like it will be a lot better. Ceilings still look too low for my tastes.

Terminal C is going to look awesome. Perhaps F is built in a way they can add onto the sides toward the main road, making a U shape at some point.

R1070 wrote:Perhaps F is built in a way they can add onto the sides toward the main road, making a U shape at some point.

Definitely not going to happen. Planes wouldn't be able to get to the gates on the east side of the terminal.

IcedCowboyCoffee wrote:Glass jet bridges are certainly a choice if that ends up being accurate. The current ones get hot enough already

Probably planning on using the new energy saving glass: https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... ny-drinks/

Yeah I think that's (the energy saving glass) a good place to spend money differentiating the passenger experience from the norm, and kids of all ages will love it more.

I don't have a problem with the idea of departing from the original masterplan; IAH was similarly designed for the point-to-point airlines of the era and has been contemplating a major teardown to try to shoehorn midfield terminals into its spiderweb of landside connections somehow. I just wonder whether DFW will be able to do something like Abu Dhabi's bigger midfield terminal someday:

https://www.worldconstructionnetwork.co ... l-airport/



The x-shaped $3bn, 7 million square foot project (2012-2017) includes an inboard 163 room "transit hotel" and other airside amenities.

Southwest Airlines in talks for ‘modest presence’ at DFW Airport
Southwest, unable to grow at Dallas Love Field, has inquired about DFW Airport’s new Terminal F.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... w-airport/

Southwest Airlines has talked with DFW International Airport about adding a “modest presence” at the second busiest airport in the world, Southwest CEO Bob Jordan said Wednesday, eying the new Terminal F expected to be finished in 2026.

On Wednesday at the Skift Aviation Forum, Jordan told attendees a priority for the carrier is to ensure that Southwest keeps its 18 gates at Dallas Love Field. However, after the Wright Amendment’s restrictions expire in 2025, the airline is taking a look at growing in the Dallas-Fort Worth region.

^ I have to think that if WN does go to concourse F (sorry, I can't call it a terminal) then it's going to require a total redesign. WN specializes in point-to-point, and the current F design totally ignores O&D traffic.

Alternative: Maybe AA could move the regional flights from the hated terminal E satellite gates to F, and give them to WN.

The design of "F" (can't call it a terminal either) totally baffles me.

Dfw is going to be a wonderful hub for Southwest, perhaps eventually forming a fourth global alliance. The facility absolutely needs competitive hubs, especially with the international product.

Love field can handle the Dallas propper travelers, while hosting the next product for Southwest, "first class" only planes.

Yeah, agree it's difficult to call it a terminal w/o any ticketing/security/drop-off/pick-up. Wonder if the design changes should SWA decide to fly out of DFW??

It wouldn't need to change if it's a midfield transfer terminal for cross country connecting flight passengers. That is what DEN, ATL and other top hubs were built around. No comment on Southwest's business model but they do end up having a lot of passengers sitting on planes during point to point to point flights when the passengers' destination is only one of the later points. So they do some 2-hop with mid journey transfer itineraries too even if their facilities are not hub and spoke.

Until such time as commercial aviation is revolutionized again, economics would still pull DFW to follow IAD and ATL and DEN's midfield terminal lead in a bigger way than this, but it's a toe dipped cautiously in the water. As we all know, DFW is from an era when minimizing steps from curbside to airside seemed like the main thing in layout design.

The only benefit for those living nearer to Love Field is that they could fly non stop to Mexico or Caribbean islands since DFW has immigration facilities and staff.

I see it as only a gate or two at DFW for WN. Just like at IAH, MIA, or ORD. I believe those locations are more O&D for WN than a place where point to point transfers happen. All these airports have either a WN "hub" (MDW, HOU) or significant presence (FLL) airport nearby to handle the usual WN operations. I see DFW being the same way.

I have to assumue SWA is just threatening to get Dallas to expand Love Field....buuuut their new executive leadership is very open to large airports that they used to avoid (MIA/ORD/IAH)

Southwest needs direct international flights to the metroplex from Mexico and Canada.

Southwest doesn't fly to Canada. I would assume if they end up at DFW a good portion of those flights would be international.

So, crazy idea...

In the distant future when the Orange Line has four tracks (two express, two local) and a subway station tunnel spur exists between Burbank and Love Field terminal,

...could a secure side spur track (think the credits sequence to Get Smart, or a James Bond movie) beyond the Love Field lobby public DART subway station, on into a second set of platforms on the concourse side, allow for scheduled express trains to board frequently for DFW Terminal G airside (and arrive from there) in order to let both airports hub connections for each other?

It could actually drive down the ticket prices and increase the utilization rates of both facilities while adding gate and runway capacity without building new gates and new runways (of possible interest to NIMBY-after-11PM home investors)

There was a rumor on Airliners.net that Air India is about to announce DFW-DEL service 5x per week on their new ex-Delta 777-200LR aircraft.
Someone apparently saw the flight schedule loaded into a system but not yet for sale. The start date was February 2024.

Hopefully this rumor will prove to be true. Maybe they are waiting to announce it at the 50 year anniversary of DFW's opening, which is in a few days on January 13, 2024. That day is reported to be "the beginning of a year long celebration" for the 50 year anniversary. It would be amazing to see Air India and multiple other new carriers/flights announced on the same day! Maybe Starlux, EVA Air, KLM, Royal Air Maroc, or Cathay Pacific.

Air India’s DFW announcement must be imminent. They have added DFW to their route map of destinations (along with LAX and SEA).

Frontier Airlines expands nonstop service from DFW Airport

Frontier is adding 14 non-stop destinations, making 36 in all. The new flights will start in April and May.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/front ... t/3441958/

Work on DFW Airport’s sixth terminal could start as early as February
The airport’s governing board is set to approve a $914 million contract for Terminal F Thursday.


Good to see this activity moving quickly. DFW Airport is a really well run org.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... -february/

I'm more excited about Terminal C being updated.

That new (to me) artist's conception looking from the east shows how lame this new "terminal" really is.

One new (again, to me) fact in this article: The gates are only for narrow-bodies. No big planes allowed.