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DFW Airport

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TNWE
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby TNWE » 05 Jun 2020 14:17

Hannibal Lecter wrote:
flyswatter wrote:ATL is a much better run airport and airspace than here as well.


You've apparently never been through TSA at ATL. :-)

As for the airspace, ATL has a nice little monopoly. They don't have another major airport less than 5 miles away to complicate things.


Pro-tip for ATL - if you're getting dropped off and not checking bags, go to the International terminal and clear security there. If you're flying AA/United/Southwest and checking bags, you're SOL, tho.

And yeah, ATL has the benefit of 5 East/West runways with no conflicting approach paths for miles. Watch a flight tracking site (once flight volumes pick back up) and you'll see the giant orderly queues of arriving aircraft being funneled in, whereas the DAL/DFW airspace has all sorts of wild arrival/departure procedures to keep traffic from the two airports from conflicting. Add in Dallas' summer thunderstorms and the fact that DFW has N/S and crosswind runways, it's not uncommon to find your flight turn into a tilt-a-whirl as ATC keeps shifting things around.

As I recall, the FAA tried to prevent that issue back in the 70s, but some "Dallas > Regionalism" voices got their way ;) :lol:

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Tucy
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Tucy » 05 Jun 2020 16:52

Hannibal Lecter wrote:
flyswatter wrote:ATL is a much better run airport and airspace than here as well.


You've apparently never been through TSA at ATL. :-)

As for the airspace, ATL has a nice little monopoly. They don't have another major airport less than 5 miles away to complicate things.


Good point, except for the exaggeration. Less than 5 miles?

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TNWE
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby TNWE » 05 Jun 2020 17:58

Tucy wrote:
Hannibal Lecter wrote:
flyswatter wrote:ATL is a much better run airport and airspace than here as well.


You've apparently never been through TSA at ATL. :-)

As for the airspace, ATL has a nice little monopoly. They don't have another major airport less than 5 miles away to complicate things.


Good point, except for the exaggeration. Less than 5 miles?

Its about 9 miles as the crow flies from the northern edge of DAL's runways to the easternmost edge of DFW's - not the most outrageous exaggeration considering ATC spacing requirements

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 05 Jun 2020 18:18

I got the number from https://disween.com/dallas-tx-us/DAL#:~ ... 20a%20line.

Your starting point United States, Dallas is located at (32.7825, -96.8207).
Your ending point United States, Dallas Love Field (DAL) is located at (32.8470993041992, -96.8517990112305)
Total distance from Dallas to Dallas Love Field (DAL) is 7.75 kms. 7.75 kms equals to 4.81 miles and 4.18 nautical miles.


I thought it sounded low, but not crazily so. 9-10 miles sounds much more reasonable.

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flyswatter
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby flyswatter » 06 Jun 2020 10:45

Image

Source: ACI

ATL also has a much larger amount of traffic, although right now it is skewed since DL has been more aggressive in drawing their operation down than AA. I can't find DAL's data but it wouldn't surprise me if ATL was higher than both combined.

I do agree though that they have much more airspace to play with and can more easily pick their way around weather. Runways are built to climatology, and ATL generally has E/W winds while DFW usually has N/S (more usually NW/SE). They also have thunderstorms throughout the summer, much more than we do.

I'm a Met for an airline, I see how both react to irregular ops regularly. ZTL/ATL is miles ahead. ZFW/DFW is sad sometimes. They very aggressively shut down routes.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 13 Jul 2020 13:21


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Zmitz
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Zmitz » 31 Jul 2020 10:57

"The airport has postponed the planned 24-gate facility “indefinitely” because of a drop in flyer numbers"

Not unexpected, but still disappointing.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/dfw-termi ... ronavirus/

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TNWE
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby TNWE » 03 Aug 2020 10:36

Zmitz wrote:"The airport has postponed the planned 24-gate facility “indefinitely” because of a drop in flyer numbers"

Not unexpected, but still disappointing.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/dfw-termi ... ronavirus/


Wasn't there a similar delay of Terminal D amid 9/11-related cuts to flying? I seem to remember Terminal D only moving ahead once AA agreed to lease additional gates beyond what they needed for their International service at the time. It was originally designed for and intended to be 100% International arrivals/departures, but up until the merger it was pretty regularly used for handling all-domestic arrival/departures (i.e. planes that came in from a domestic destination and left for a domestic one). Once the merger closed and AA started getting new widebodies, all the new international flights suddenly meant a shortage of widebody-capable gates in D and started running some international departures out of A

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Tucy
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Tucy » 03 Aug 2020 10:54

TNWE wrote:
Zmitz wrote:"The airport has postponed the planned 24-gate facility “indefinitely” because of a drop in flyer numbers"

Not unexpected, but still disappointing.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/dfw-termi ... ronavirus/


Wasn't there a similar delay of Terminal D amid 9/11-related cuts to flying? I seem to remember Terminal D only moving ahead once AA agreed to lease additional gates beyond what they needed for their International service at the time. It was originally designed for and intended to be 100% International arrivals/departures, but up until the merger it was pretty regularly used for handling all-domestic arrival/departures (i.e. planes that came in from a domestic destination and left for a domestic one). Once the merger closed and AA started getting new widebodies, all the new international flights suddenly meant a shortage of widebody-capable gates in D and started running some international departures out of A


Regardless of any capacity constraints in Terminal D, American has always and no doubt will always have international departures from all terminals. There are good operational reasons to do so and no reason not to. For example, today's schedule shows international departures from Terminals A, B, C & D.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 03 Aug 2020 10:58

^ The implosion of the old Hyatt -- where Terminal D now sits -- was originally scheduled for September 16, 2001. It was delayed until October 7th for obvious reasons. There were also some delays due to design changes due to 9/11.

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TNWE
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby TNWE » 04 Aug 2020 15:57

Tucy wrote:Regardless of any capacity constraints in Terminal D, American has always and no doubt will always have international departures from all terminals. There are good operational reasons to do so and no reason not to. For example, today's schedule shows international departures from Terminals A, B, C & D.


Sure, in the COVID era with fewer planes flying and far fewer international routes, flights will go from wherever there's an open gate (some airlines are leaving planes parked at gates all day and only operating the bare minimum of flights required to keep that particular aircraft "active"- if they sit for too long they need to go through a process for long-term storage that's expensive and time consuming).

In regular operations, though, the vast majority of international flights leave out of D so AA can staff those gates with language-qualified staff, their premium customers can access the Flagship lounge, and the gate areas have the space to accommodate long lines for passport checks and boarding. Up until 5-ish years ago there really weren't many AA international destinations from DFW besides LHR, NRT, CDG, FRA, and some Mexico/South America routes that all left in the afternoon, so the rest of the day the ~2/3s of gates in D that AA controls were handling domestic turns.

Point is, "indefinitely" doesn't mean "never"- The DFW airport board just wasn't going to commit to a specific timeframe for starting on Terminal F until they have a better idea of when demand will come back.

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Tucy
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Re: DFW Airport

Postby Tucy » 04 Aug 2020 16:46

TNWE wrote:
Tucy wrote:Regardless of any capacity constraints in Terminal D, American has always and no doubt will always have international departures from all terminals. There are good operational reasons to do so and no reason not to. For example, today's schedule shows international departures from Terminals A, B, C & D.


Sure, in the COVID era with fewer planes flying and far fewer international routes, flights will go from wherever there's an open gate (some airlines are leaving planes parked at gates all day and only operating the bare minimum of flights required to keep that particular aircraft "active"- if they sit for too long they need to go through a process for long-term storage that's expensive and time consuming).

In regular operations, though, the vast majority of international flights leave out of D so AA can staff those gates with language-qualified staff, their premium customers can access the Flagship lounge, and the gate areas have the space to accommodate long lines for passport checks and boarding. Up until 5-ish years ago there really weren't many AA international destinations from DFW besides LHR, NRT, CDG, FRA, and some Mexico/South America routes that all left in the afternoon, so the rest of the day the ~2/3s of gates in D that AA controls were handling domestic turns.

Point is, "indefinitely" doesn't mean "never"- The DFW airport board just wasn't going to commit to a specific timeframe for starting on Terminal F until they have a better idea of when demand will come back.


Your reasons for operating international departures from Terminal D apply just as strongly (and probably more so) in the COVID era. Nothing about the reduction in flights pushes them to move international flights away from Terminal D. As has always been the case, many international flights depart from the gate to which the aircraft arrived from a previous domestic segment. No reason to move to Terminal D.

Point is, international departures happen from all terminals on a regular basis. Always have and always will.

FWIW, I didn't make any hint of a suggestion that Terminal F was never going to happen. Of course, it will depend on the expected return of demand.


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