I-30 South & East Dallas reconstruction

[tamtagon]

A deck park, Houston train station, relocate CC DART station adjacent to deck park, renovation of municipal arena and finally mixed use reorientation/expansion of the convention center 'back door' to face The Cedars, actual new life for the convention center, neighborhood concerns begin to circle that the area is becoming too expensive...

[buildingswithlegs]

A deck park, Houston train station, relocate CC DART station adjacent to deck park, renovation of municipal arena and finally mixed use reorientation/expansion of the convention center 'back door' to face The Cedars, actual new life for the convention center, neighborhood concerns begin to circle that the area is becoming too expensive...

Where do I sign up?

[Tivo_Kenevil]

Honestly, the area sucks because of i30 and the convention center. KBH center is a total waste of money. That whole area needs to be redeveloped. Such a waste of prime real estate. That entire area is tailored for convention goers which makes it irrelevant to most people. The sad thing about it is We spent so much money building that stupid facility and we don't even utilize it for most of year. I haven't been there since the NBA all-star game was in town. A mixed Use area or more office space would be of greater value to the city.

I30 needs to be re routed and the remains decked. It is the most disruptive freeway affecting downtown and South Dallas.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

A deck park, Houston train station, relocate CC DART station adjacent to deck park, renovation of municipal arena and finally mixed use reorientation/expansion of the convention center 'back door' to face The Cedars, actual new life for the convention center, neighborhood concerns begin to circle that the area is becoming too expensive...

The deck park is too small. if your going to do that you need to connect Farmers Market to DHV and Fair Park to Nearby communities.

[tamtagon]

^just a rough guestimate, but as shown this I-30 deck park would be about twice the size of KWPark, almost certainly much of the cost could be built into the scheduled I-30 reconstruct, as Cesar Chavez & Good-Latimer blvds are re-redone with I-30, perhaps that exchange could absorb all the highway interaction allowing Harwood, St Paul, Ervy, Griffin St E to function for the neighborhood.... Heritage Village extends over the highway to Farmers Market...

sure would be expensive, but sure would pay off after a decade or two.

The convention center has not been operated effectively for the community in decades. The primary focus, target users of centers like this represent an industry that's treading water, sometimes shrinking. VisitDallas (formerly known as DCVB) absolutely must be aggressive and competitive to host national groups, these are the folks who spend the most downtown, filling the hotels, restaurants, bars and stuff, but social, civic, sport and entertainment activities in Dallas County alone should be the bread & butter activities creating activity at the center 300 days a year.

Managing directives and awareness of the Convention Center suffer the same myopia as Fair Park. Standard operating procedures for both are ridiculously locked into a way that was once effective, but timed-out a long time ago.

Anyway.... Lorenzo looks good with the birdies, but I wonder how long that graphic will stay, is it something that'll change every few years?

[joshua.dodd]

I remember seeing plans somewhere for rerouting I-30 entirely. The plans included demolishing 345, rerouting 30 south where it follows along the Trinity and goes east and then travels north along White Rock Creek and then reconnects to its current route going eastward. The plans also included demolishing a large section of both 45 and 175. Last I read, TxDOT was taking the plans very seriously.

[willyk]

A plausible path to viability for this vision would be when robust development in the Farmers Market, the East End of downtown and Deep Ellum makes developers look south to the Cedars as the next place to go.

By analogy, there is little to recommend the Design District, but critical mass and high valuations in Oak Lawn, Uptown and Victory are driving development across 35. The same thing could happen to the Cedars over the next few years.

[joshua.dodd]

Conditions: Four main lanes and two managed lanes in each direction in a new location. Possible six-lane boulevard or multimodal corridor built in current I-30 location.

Cost: More than $2 billion

Planning and construction: 24 years

Overview

Replacement highway would start near the current Horseshoe Project downtown, run roughly parallel to Riverfront Boulevard, combine with and add lanes to U.S. Highway 175, then run along White Rock Creek before connecting to the existing I-30 near Ferguson Road.
Removes I-30 through downtown and eastern Dallas or replaces it with a city boulevard or multimodal corridor for bicyclists, pedestrians or transit passengers.
Costs more than other CityMAP options and includes a host of environmental and engineering challenges.
New highway would require portions of the under-construction Horseshoe Project to be reconfigured.
A portion of the new highway would run parallel and near the planned Trinity Parkway toll road.

http://interactives.dallasnews.com/2016 ... #scenario4

[The_Overdog]

Traffic engineers most assuredly do not want people to have access to the Trinity River. We already have I20, why do we need 30 again? They could just end I30 at the GBush Turnpike and pick up again on the east side of Lake Ray Hubbard.

[muncien]

Traffic engineers most assuredly do not want people to have access to the Trinity River. We already have I20, why do we need 30 again? They could just end I30 at the GBush Turnpike and pick up again on the east side of Lake Ray Hubbard.

I was thinking the same thing about running it along the river. It would just end up doubling the length of freeway and screwing up the trinity park even more than it's already screwed up.

They just need to cut/cap I-30 all the way from the horseshoe to just past Fair Park and call it a day. Can Interstates be tolled?

[Tivo_Kenevil]

I30 needs to be a boulevard. The mix master / horseshoe project.. all that cluster of Overpasses is in probably the worst of all possible places.

Engineers will always want to connect the driver to every direction when they come to a cross-section.




Unfortunately, this is disruptive and causes congestion at that point. The horseshoe completion will do absolutely nothing to relieve that. Guaranteed.

Imagine if those highways were not there. It would allow growth up to the Trinity; really placing the river at the doorstep. That would connect city in a better manner.

[Hannibal Lecter]

Imagine if those highways were not there.

Let's see, if those highways hadn't been built... Everyone would have a great view of the Magnolia Building, as it would still be the tallest building downtown. The Trinity Park would be World Class, since it would include all the land now taken up by the Design District, Market Center, Irving Boulevard and the Brookhollow area. Dallas County commute times would be much lower, as most of the jobs and people would be located outside of it. FWA (Fort Worth/Arlington International Airport) would still be doing well. And the cozy little suburb of Dallas would be running neck and neck with Tyler for the title of 37th largest city in Texas.

[tamtagon]

^word

The city will grow around the highways no doubt about that, and the city will still depend on the highways.

I-45 should be re-routed into the Mixmaster, taking the proposed I-30 reroute parallel to the northern edge of the river (structurally, the interstate should function as a levee). I-345 and I-45 should be eliminated from East and South Dallas.

I-30 is sunken so as to negate neighborhood impact.

[joshua.dodd]

TxDOT has already said their intentions are with this relocation plan. I say do it.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

Imagine if those highways were not there.

Let's see, if those highways hadn't been built... Everyone would have a great view of the Magnolia Building, as it would still be the tallest building downtown. The Trinity Park would be World Class, since it would include all the land now taken up by the Design District, Market Center, Irving Boulevard and the Brookhollow area. Dallas County commute times would be much lower, as most of the jobs and people would be located outside of it. FWA (Fort Worth/Arlington International Airport) would still be doing well. And the cozy little suburb of Dallas would be running neck and neck with Tyler for the title of 37th largest city in Texas.

While I do agree with you that highways helped Dallas in some aspects; It also can't be ignored that there were unintended consequences in building the highways with regard to the surrounding Neighborhoods and Downtown itself. With that said, my comment was more centered at where the Mix Master is..Not at the fact that there are Highways.

That exchange is in possibly the worst possible spot.

IMO where i-35 & i-30 converge, the exchange should have been designed / placed differently.

[joshua.dodd]

But look at that density at the corner of 30 and 345! This is an old photograph too. So all the construction in that area shown is, today, more urban density.

[The_Overdog]

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1785077

Here are some older pictures. Dallas was doing just fine. That's some urban density. And I'm with Tivo. Sure there need to be some major streets (maybe even highways) near downtown, but not as many as there are.

[tamtagon]

I hope to clean up the topic cornucopia this evening.... I think this highway stuff has its own thread somewhere...

[willyk]

I hope to clean up the topic cornucopia this evening.... I think this highway stuff has its own thread somewhere...

[tamtagon]

Conditions: Four main lanes and two managed lanes in each direction in a new location. Possible six-lane boulevard or multimodal corridor built in current I-30 location.

Cost: More than $2 billion

Planning and construction: 24 years

Overview

Replacement highway would start near the current Horseshoe Project downtown, run roughly parallel to Riverfront Boulevard, combine with and add lanes to U.S. Highway 175, then run along White Rock Creek before connecting to the existing I-30 near Ferguson Road.
Removes I-30 through downtown and eastern Dallas or replaces it with a city boulevard or multimodal corridor for bicyclists, pedestrians or transit passengers.
Costs more than other CityMAP options and includes a host of environmental and engineering challenges.
New highway would require portions of the under-construction Horseshoe Project to be reconfigured.
A portion of the new highway would run parallel and near the planned Trinity Parkway toll road.

http://interactives.dallasnews.com/2016 ... #scenario4

I kinda love this and kinda hate it....

[jrd1964]

It looks a bit convoluted, and considering current/upcoming traffic patterns (not to mention the Kaufman paper said recently that Kaufman County has the potential to grow to 500,000 population!), that I-30 redo (which, if done, will carry inbound traffic from I-30, US 80, US 175, and I-45 all mixed together) will make the horseshoe-mixmaster a chokepoint/bullseye. I don't think anyone has thought of that. What about the State Fair and football games there? With no nearby freeway (and not everyone would use DART to get there), surface streets would be a mess. What's so wrong about lowering/decking I-30? Much less the over-over-abundance of brick wall mentality regarding I-345. I am through that area regularly, and not once have I been kept from crossing under, one direction or the other, and I'm still in one piece too!

[electricron]

The I-30 reroute is just another attempt by TXDOT and the City of Dallas to place a freeway inside the Trinity River levees and in the Trinity Forest. They just can't resist using free land, no matter how much of the Park they will destroy.
There's no valid reason to move I-30. It's already below grade around downtown Dallas, and rises above grade to the east so as to climb over railroad tracks and White Rock Creek. The same Creek and railroad tracks would parallel the I-30 reroute, so that means it will have to be built above grade as well. There's just no advantage for building the reroute, except saving money on needed land.
The reroute will have to be very wide carrying much of the traffic using I-30 (6 existing lanes), US-80 (4 existing lanes), US-175 (6 existing lanes), and I-45 (6 existing lanes). Yes, up to 22 lanes just to keep the existing capacity, not additional capacity. Can you imagine what will happen when traffic from 11 lanes heading northeast within the Trinity River levees meets the brand new intersection at I-35?

[rantanamo]

The I-30 reroute is just another attempt by TXDOT and the City of Dallas to place a freeway inside the Trinity River levels and in the Trinity Forest. They just can't resist using free land, no matter how much of the Park they will destroy.
There's no valid reason to move I-30. It's already below grade around downtown Dallas, and rises above grade to the east so as to climb over railroad tracks and White Rock Creek. The same Creek and railroad tracks would parallel the I-30 reroute, so that means it will have to be built above grade as well. There's just no advantage for building the reroute, except saving money on needed land.
The reroute will have to be very wide carrying much of the traffic using I-30 (6 existing lanes), US-80 (4 existing lanes), US-175 (6 existing lanes), and I-45 (6 existing lanes). Yes, up to 22 lanes just to keep the existing capacity, not additional capacity. Can you imagine what will happen when traffic from 11 lanes heading northeast within the Trinity River levees meets the brand new intersection at I-35?

The extra distance will allow the traffic to sort itself a little better. Perhaps with collector lanes

[electricron]

Here's an idea, reroute I-30 traffic to I-635, to SH-121, and to I-820 completely bypassing downtowns Dallas, Grand Prairie, Arlington, and Fort Worth. Then tear the existing I-30 down and make a six lane boulevard out of it. Then we wouldn't have to build a new freeway at all in Dallas., and specifically not one through our Great Trinity Forest.

[joshua.dodd]

Reroute 30 traffic to 635

[joshua.dodd]

The I-30 reroute is just another attempt by TXDOT and the City of Dallas to place a freeway inside the Trinity River levees and in the Trinity Forest. They just can't resist using free land, no matter how much of the Park they will destroy.
There's no valid reason to move I-30. It's already below grade around downtown Dallas, and rises above grade to the east so as to climb over railroad tracks and White Rock Creek. The same Creek and railroad tracks would parallel the I-30 reroute, so that means it will have to be built above grade as well. There's just no advantage for building the reroute, except saving money on needed land.
The reroute will have to be very wide carrying much of the traffic using I-30 (6 existing lanes), US-80 (4 existing lanes), US-175 (6 existing lanes), and I-45 (6 existing lanes). Yes, up to 22 lanes just to keep the existing capacity, not additional capacity. Can you imagine what will happen when traffic from 11 lanes heading northeast within the Trinity River levees meets the brand new intersection at I-35?

I can assure you that TXDot actually has solid reason to consider this option.

[The_Overdog]

I30 goes to dominant metros like Greenville and then is a direct connection to Texarkana (motto: we have almost as many people as UNT) and finally to Little Rock where it ceases to exist. I30 between Dallas and Ft Worth has some value - beyond that it's totally unnecessary and should be eliminated and not re-routed to anywhere.

The main reason for re-routing it involves spending lots of money.

[rantanamo]

lots of distribution in the I-30 corridor, whether natural resources or more commercial distribution. Truck traffic clogs I-30 daily outside of Rockwall and often to Greenville or even Sulfur Springs at times. The city populations along the route don't tell the story.

[The_Overdog]

You could say the same thing about 287 to Amarillo, and there's not an interstate that connects to there. I should probably stop giving them ideas.

[rantanamo]

You could say the same thing about 287 to Amarillo, and there's not an interstate that connects to there. I should probably stop giving them ideas.

Interstate generally means connecting more than one state. 287 does not, I-30 does.

[northsouth]

Just like I-45. Also, turns out that if US287 ever does get upgraded to an interstate, it would be I-32, potentially extending northwest from Amarillo into New Mexico.

[DPatel304]

Is it too costly to bury some of these highways and turn them into tunnels? There have been talks about destroying I-345 and also re-routing I-30, but nothing that talks about burying any of these existing highways (even if it's only for a bit).

[I45Tex]

I wonder whether we couldn't build a constituency for funding a better alignment of Interstate 30 (first phase to I-35; second to I-32; and third to I-20) by going ahead and fully tolling the existing I-30 as follows in orange.

fullsizeoutput_319.jpeg

If that happened, then I-45's signed route would officially terminate at I-20 instead of the present I-30 downtown. In that case and that case only, the Julius Schepps Freeway could become the DNT South -- and due mainly to the added value provided by Tom Landry Tollway connectivity, a ghastly-expensive Big D Big Dig between them to revitalize Deep Ellum could then, albeit barely, make good sense.

IMG_0015.jpg

[cowboyeagle05]

Please don't take this antagonistically but nope.

[I45Tex]

Well, similarly, don't take this as mansplaining, but when you weigh in, please communicate equally constructively or don't bother.
It won't bother me to be told no. Sure, a lot of different moving parts went into those sketches, but we can have a conversation about them. We can even use expressway reinvestment as a focal point to discuss Dallas' larger reinvention that will be necessary if it's to keep growing beyond 2020. I do think our brainstorms can be more than an entertainment.

[muncien]

Other than the horseshoe section (which is quite the mess), I really don't find any issue with the existing alignments. The only problem (and it's a big one), is that they should all be about 30 feet deeper and covered... allowing the neighborhoods to connect.

I honestly don't feel like the answer is removing critical freeways. We have a LONNNNNG way to go before the automobile is not our primary mode of transportation. Removing freeways before that time will also separate people from the city and likely cause an exodus. While we would like to think the city can flourish under it's own power, the reality is that we still live in a world where employment centers drive population, and without connectivity, business will find somewhere else to go... no doubt.

[The_Overdog]

I agree about removing critical freeways - I'm just not sure I30 after it connects Dallas to Ft Worth counts as a critical freeway. There is no I30 east of Ft Worth and I'm still not convinced that I30 east of downtown carries enough traffic to be worthwhile. I think it would be fine tapering to a regular street somewhere slightly west of downtown - a regular street through downtown (like Preston or Beltline) and a state highway east of downtown.

[rantanamo]

I agree about removing critical freeways - I'm just not sure I30 after it connects Dallas to Ft Worth counts as a critical freeway. There is no I30 east of Ft Worth and I'm still not convinced that I30 east of downtown carries enough traffic to be worthwhile. I think it would be fine tapering to a regular street somewhere slightly west of downtown - a regular street through downtown (like Preston or Beltline) and a state highway east of downtown.

If you're going to run a train down the center or under said boulevard, I'm all for it. You can't just cut off 500,000 people from downtown without significant alternatives.

[joshua.dodd]

The idea of simply removing 30 is preposterous. 30 actually serves an incredibly vital roll for the Metroplex. It serves as a direct logistical link to Texarkana, Little Rock and Memphis, and northeastward spread from there. In essence, it is an express spur. There is a huge number of freight that flows on that freeway that comes to Dallas from the Northeastern ports of Boston and New York.

With the new 30 and 360 interchange under construction, I expect traffic conditions to vastly improve. Remember, the biggest cause for bottleneck traffic for 30 is the 360 interchange. That interchange has been like an artery clog for decades. But that will change in a few years. Also, don't forget that 30 serves as a crucial access link for the cities and DFW airport, which is the engine that powers the Metroplex. Lots of people rely on 30 between the cities.

[Hannibal Lecter]

I get the impression some folks here don't comprehend the population growth in the eastern areas of the Metroplex. IIRC, since 2000 Rockwall County has been the 4th fastest growing county in the country. Several years it was the fastest.

[rantanamo]

I think they just mean the section from 635 to downtown. That's fine as long as there are transportation alternatives.

[jrd1964]

I get the impression some folks here don't comprehend the population growth in the eastern areas of the Metroplex. IIRC, since 2000 Rockwall County has been the 4th fastest growing county in the country. Several years it was the fastest.

I read an article recently in the Kaufman paper that projections in Kaufman County are for 500,000 population in the next several years (I forgot if they were specific about how many years or a set timeframe). Not only east, but there's still much in the way of untapped potential southward as well, especially since the Inland Port and related real estate activity has become a factor. NCTCOG is wanting to see more capacity for I-30 east, US 80, US 175 (to 8 lanes inside LBJ & I-20), as well as I-20 east (6 lanes all the way to the Louisiana border). So, with what we have now, and those that will inevitably come to live here, it will not be easy to try to put downtown or any part of the DFW area on a freeway diet, and in some ways, it's probably too late to think we could do that to much of a degree. Besides, after all that's already been done around here, putting up a motor vehicle "wall" around I-635 and I-820 would only work for a small fraction of traffic and would possibly work to alienate others wanting to visit or conduct business here.

If freeways aren't wanted downtown, why even have the Horseshoe project take place?

[The_Overdog]

I read an article recently in the Kaufman paper that projections in Kaufman County are for 500,000 population in the next several years

Kaufmann County's current population is 118k, so 'next several years' is like 40, and that's only if they can sustain the same population growth while competing with the northern burbs and Dallas and Ft Worth proper. They ain't building 500k people worth of single family homes in that area in a short timeframe. And the entire county gained 18k people in the last 6 years in the same timeframe that Frisco added about 60k. So yeah, I'm sure Kaufmann County is on it way and that the people who currently live there really want that for their own community.

[I45Tex]

If you take a shortcut on DNT etc. then the NTTA references your plates to an address and sends you the bill. Never thought I was suggesting a "road wall" around the city centers; but why not charge different rates for different demand elasticities? If you want to encourage central job growth, we can do that through a sliding scale. If your address is in certain jurisdictions, you aren't charged on your commute; by contrast, though, if you are from out of NCTCOG or out of state, you will have to pay NTTA to congest the inner neighborhoods' expressways.

Most cities have proven eager to tax out of town guests with hotel room and rental car surcharges, and this likewise is not a freeway diet, more like putting a sneeze guard on the pig-out buffet.

[joshua.dodd]

I read an article recently in the Kaufman paper that projections in Kaufman County are for 500,000 population in the next several years

Kaufmann County's current population is 118k, so 'next several years' is like 40, and that's only if they can sustain the same population growth while competing with the northern burbs and Dallas and Ft Worth proper. They ain't building 500k people worth of single family homes in that area in a short time frame. And the entire county gained 18k people in the last 6 years in the same time frame that Frisco added about 60k. So yeah, I'm sure Kaufmann County is on it way and that the people who currently live there really want that for their own community.

The northern burbs are mostly filled out. High housing demand is skyrocketing across the southern counties of the Metroplex. Waxahachie, Tx is now one of the fastest growing cities, for example. The largest planned development south of Dallas is currently being constructed in Waxahachie. And that is just one massive development along with many other housing developments currently being built in that town alone. The demand is definitely in the south now.

[tamtagon]

I'm still pissed that Superconducting Super Collider got cancelled.

[Tnexster]

I'm still pissed that Superconducting Super Collider got cancelled.

Me too, that was a huge loss and would have been a significant boom for the southern side of DFW.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

I read an article recently in the Kaufman paper that projections in Kaufman County are for 500,000 population in the next several years

Kaufmann County's current population is 118k, so 'next several years' is like 40, and that's only if they can sustain the same population growth while competing with the northern burbs and Dallas and Ft Worth proper. They ain't building 500k people worth of single family homes in that area in a short time frame. And the entire county gained 18k people in the last 6 years in the same time frame that Frisco added about 60k. So yeah, I'm sure Kaufmann County is on it way and that the people who currently live there really want that for their own community.

The northern burbs are mostly filled out. High housing demand is skyrocketing across the southern counties of the Metroplex. Waxahachie, Tx is now one of the fastest growing cities, for example. The largest planned development south of Dallas is currently being constructed in Waxahachie. And that is just one massive development along with many other housing developments currently being built in that town alone. The demand is definitely in the south now.

I don't think so. The Northern Burbs look like they're densifying to me. And its only a matter before places like Anna , Lucas and Melissa get going.

[Tnexster]

Almost 400 people a day moving into the region, the growth is not exclusive to one area or another, everyone is getting in on it.

[tamtagon]

I'm still pissed that Superconducting Super Collider got cancelled.

Me too, that was a huge loss and would have been a significant boom for the southern side of DFW.

Now that's a bigger loss than Boeing and Fair Park Cowboys combined!

I'm still trying to figure out what I think about that plan to re-route I-30 parallel-ish to White Rock Creek... I've been all in favor of taking I-45 out of South Dallas and running it parallel-ish to Trinity River into the Mixmaster, but I don't know about eliminating the off-grid highway into the CBD....