Dallas Area Rapid Transit

[Tivo_Kenevil]

Wow, That's pretty progressive. Although, I don't know how helpful this will be if the system is not robust. Perhaps, that's why it will be free.

[Redblock]

I saw this and thought it was interesting.

https://archpaper.com/2019/12/kansas-ci ... c-transit/

Kansas City is not the first major US city with free transit. Those of us of a certain age will remember Austin's short but failed experiment from 30 years ago. Paragraph 9 of the linked article describes the problems which led to its end.

https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/as-u.s ... ke-it-free

[quixomniac]

Wow, That's pretty progressive. Although, I don't know how helpful this will be if the system is not robust. Perhaps, that's why it will be free.

Coincidentally, I was lucky enough to get a chance to ride it a while back when in town for a conference.
Which, given that Kansas City is a smaller city than Dallas,
The difference in conference experience was night and day.
Their rail was already free, and it passes near the conference center, as is everything else that is relevant for tourists, new comers, residents. with the exception of the airport
From the convention center a block or two over is a not dead version of the West End/Deep ellum hybrid with an Alamo Drafthouse, a few stops up is a REAL farmers market complete with dining and shopping.

It may not be robust in comparison to ours, but they are getting their bang for their buck.
Their investment is paying off in creating a cohesive corridor around their rail.
I suppose they just want to do the same along their bus line corridors.
They are also expanding their rail line, which I dont know how they are doing financially given that it is free.
I guess it also helps they dont have to play regional politics with suburbs.

[muncien]

If I'm not mistaken, I believe fares only pay 15-20% of transit operation expenses in most cities. Most funding comes through sales taxes, federal and state programs, etc.
20% is still a sizable chunk of $ of course, but it's certainly workable.
As was pointed out a couple posts up... most issues with free transit come from those who are just taking joy rides. We already have significant disruption from disorderly individuals that discourage ridership. I can't imagine how bad it would be if our system were free.

[Hannibal Lecter]

^ A short comparison of farebox recovery ratios: https://metro.fandom.com/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio

DART is an outlier on the low end at 13%. Keep in mind that is operating expenses only, not capital expenses.

I've heard it said that the money DART gets from fares doesn't do much more than cover the cost of collecting and processing them. I don't know how true that is.

ADDENDUM: More info from https://www.njspotlight.com/2015/07/15- ... -revenues/

Top 10 farebox recovery ratios nationwide:

1.San Francisco Bay Area Rapid Transit, California: 65%
2. Metro-North Commuter Railroad, New York: 55%
3. MTA Long Island Rail Road, New York: 48%
4. Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority, D.C.: 46%
5. Northeast Illinois Regional Commuter Railroad (Metra), Illinois: 45%
6. San Diego Metropolitan Transit System, California: 43%
7. Chicago Transit Authority, Illinois: 42%
8. MTA New York City Transit, New York: 41%
9. NJ Transit, New Jersey: 40%
10. PATH, New Jersey/New York: 40%

[cowboyeagle05]

How about the costs of processing tickets for not having a ticket to ride. I wonder if that balances out as well.

[itsjrd1964]

Urban farm sprouts on unused DART property beside South Dallas station

A new urban farm has been established adjacent to the Hatcher Station on DART's Green line. Area residents can eventually have their own box in the garden to grow and even sell their own produce. DART could end up with more spots like this, as they have around 200 pieces of unused land in the greater Dallas area.

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/2019/12/ ... s-station/

[Redblock]

DART agrees to TOD deal with Trammell Crow at SMU/Mockingbird Station.

https://www.masstransitmag.com/rail/inf ... rd-station

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/ ... ion--59312

[Cbdallas]

With all of the development running from Downtown all the way up to Frisco and beyond on the tollway would it be feasible to run a raised rail line all the way up to Frisco. It seems that this corridor is where the most office and residential growth is happening and I know a tunnel is not ever going to happen. I would think a raised line could service the tollway corridor at some point. I know the politics of the Park cities and Preston Hollow would fight it tooth and nail but somehow it could happen.

[cowboyeagle05]

When Frisco starts paying into DART we can start talking but right now we are building the Cotton Belt/Silver line cause Addison has paid for DART since forever and demanded a train of its own plus Plano wants an express line to the airport. Building a tollway line that will take years of fighting in lawsuits seems pretty pointless particularly since everything along the tollway is geared towards valet and cars, trucks and SUV's.

[electricron]

The North Texas Tollway south of LBJ follows the route the Cotton Belt used to get to Union Station in Dallas. The ONCOR transmission line was built within the railroad right-of-way. When the Tollway replaced the railroad tracks, ONCOR rebuilt the transmission line using taller metal poles replacing lattice and wooden poles to allow the Tollway to be both wider and taller where needed.
The railroad corridor was nor rail banked, and the Tollway owns the right-of way today. Any future rail corridor above or below the Tollway will have to pay the Tollway significant money for access rights - considering the Tollway allows free access to it for buses of both DART and various schools. The existing express buses on the Tollway is probably the best transit you will ever see on, over, or under the Tollway.

If and when Frisco ever joins DART, the BNSF corridor north of Carrolton will most likely be the corridor DART will use to get commuter rail to Frisco.

[muncien]

The only possible usage of space over the DNT that I see would be some future HSR (or hyperloop) extension to the North. Obviously, that wouldn't be for the next 30 years or more... But when considering a Northern route out of the city, it kinda makes sense. I would assume such a system would have another stop up near the Colony. There really just aren't any other alternatives to go North without tunneling or jumping over to Irving first.

I just can't see any local or commuter lines taking this route.

[Cbdallas]

Fortunately I do not live or work up that way but when I seldom visit from the urban part of Dallas I don't understand the appeal as I find the traffic in that area from Plano to Frisco with terrible traffic issues that will only get worse with no transit planned.

[electricron]

The only possible usage of space over the DNT that I see would be some future HSR (or hyperloop) extension to the North. Obviously, that wouldn't be for the next 30 years or more... But when considering a Northern route out of the city, it kinda makes sense. I would assume such a system would have another stop up near the Colony. There really just aren't any other alternatives to go North without tunneling or jumping over to Irving first.

I just can't see any local or commuter lines taking this route.

There are plenty of wide avenues running north to south in north Dallas that DART could place a light rail line on. The Tollway is not the only wide highway heading north, SH 289 or if you prefer Preston Road is another.
DART could run the light rail line within the median of Preston Road just like they did in south Dallas along Lancaster Road or SH 342. Marsh Lane, Midway Road, Hillcrest Road are just as valid alternatives.
One of the biggest advantages of light rail lines over commuter rail lines is the ability to run within city streets, in dedicated lanes or medians, and over or under them. Every wide avenue in Texas, six or more lanes, can have a light rail line inserted and still have four lanes left over for other traffic. I'm not going to suggest every one of them should, but one paralleling the Tollway is just as valid as the Tollway for building a transit line, possibly even a better choice because of the ease of access to reach the transit platforms.

[texasstar]

Wow! A Preston Road line from Dallas to Prosper would be intriguing.

[cowboyeagle05]

Haha, Hillcrest? or Preston? The Park Cities would crucify DART and set it ablaze along with seasoning it with saffron and a brown butter sauce. The only way DART will get rail through the Park Cities is either go around or underground and honestly if they proposed underground the whole city would claim it would cause instability of the foundations of their homes and that it would be too dangerous. Laura Miller would jump in the middle of the crisis and attempt to negotiate a deal as the Park Cities folk would declare an end to their happy quiet neighborhood with the invasion of dirty and useless tax wasting trains. DART already avoided the ire of Park Cities when they canceled the Knox Station cause residents were concerned about the kind of people who ride transit. Surface rail will never come to Park Cities even as a pass-through. They would never even allow a historical streetcar like MATA.

[Hannibal Lecter]

^ If DART hadn't agreed to spend the hundreds of millions to put the rail line under Central instead of using the MKT line south of Mockingbird there would be no DART rail in the corridor. Period.

[lakewoodhobo]

DART's New Interactive Digital Kiosks Bring Leading Edge Technology to North Texas Riders
https://www.dart.org/news/news.asp?ID=1459

Glad to see these kiosks starting to get deployed now that I understand there will be “more than 300” and will display real-time transit information and provide free wi-fi, which is desperately needed at Cityplace Station.

Additionally, it would be nice if DART would update the amenities at some of its stations to take advantage of wi-fi. These could be a set of charging station instead of wall-mounted trash cans, for example.

Unknown.jpeg

[muncien]

I don't think we have an Orange Line specific thread anymore, so I'll just put this here...
DART has awarded a contract to build the Hidden Ridge Station in Irving. $11.6m and slated to be completed by December.

[TNWE]

I don't think we have an Orange Line specific thread anymore, so I'll just put this here...
DART has awarded a contract to build the Hidden Ridge Station in Irving. $11.6m and slated to be completed by December.

Woohoo! Any idea if Pioneer has built the necessary infrastructure on their side to provide pedestrian access to the new station? I haven't been up that way on the orange line since they finished their HQ,

[lakewoodhobo]

I don't think we have an Orange Line specific thread anymore, so I'll just put this here...
DART has awarded a contract to build the Hidden Ridge Station in Irving. $11.6m and slated to be completed by December.

Woohoo! Any idea if Pioneer has built the necessary infrastructure on their side to provide pedestrian access to the new station? I haven't been up that way on the orange line since they finished their HQ,

Is there even supposed to be pedestrian access from the Station to the campus? If you look at the site plan from DART, they've labeled a pedestrian connection to the Villas at Beaver Creek but not one to Hidden Ridge. If anything, there might be a controlled access point like the one from Market Center Station to the parking garage of World Trade Center.

Screen Shot 2020-01-29 at 7.14.46 PM.png

[muncien]

I walk by this spot at least once a week. That bridge appears to be usable with some clean up, and would be the logic crossing point, but it now crosses directly into a massive parking garage. There is an access driveway adjacent to the garage that has a sidewalk along it, and you can see a branch off of that sidewalk (toward the creek) that abruptly terminates. Perhaps they do intend to wrap a path around the garage and connect it to the station via the bridge. But I wouldn't count on that happening for sure. Without it, there no access from the eastbound platform without crossing to the westbound side first. If going from there to the new developement, you then have to cross back over the tracks at Green Park. That just seems silly.

[TNWE]

I walk by this spot at least once a week. That bridge appears to be usable with some clean up, and would be the logic crossing point, but it now crosses directly into a massive parking garage. There is an access driveway adjacent to the garage that has a sidewalk along it, and you can see a branch off of that sidewalk (toward the creek) that abruptly terminates. Perhaps they do intend to wrap a path around the garage and connect it to the station via the bridge. But I wouldn't count on that happening for sure. Without it, there no access from the eastbound platform without crossing to the westbound side first. If going from there to the new developement, you then have to cross back over the tracks at Green Park. That just seems silly.

There really needs to be a usable connection, otherwise what's the point? The handful of midscale hotels and apartments aren't going to generate a meaningful amount of pedestrian access, and the Park and Ride would just cannibalize a few existing drivers from North Lake College.

I know the idea of walking through a parking garage is antithesis to most people here, but minimizing exposure to sun/rain is a big deal to office workers, especially ones you want to coax out of their cars and onto transit...

[muncien]

I walk by this spot at least once a week. That bridge appears to be usable with some clean up, and would be the logic crossing point, but it now crosses directly into a massive parking garage. There is an access driveway adjacent to the garage that has a sidewalk along it, and you can see a branch off of that sidewalk (toward the creek) that abruptly terminates. Perhaps they do intend to wrap a path around the garage and connect it to the station via the bridge. But I wouldn't count on that happening for sure. Without it, there no access from the eastbound platform without crossing to the westbound side first. If going from there to the new developement, you then have to cross back over the tracks at Green Park. That just seems silly.

There really needs to be a usable connection, otherwise what's the point? The handful of midscale hotels and apartments aren't going to generate a meaningful amount of pedestrian access, and the Park and Ride would just cannibalize a few existing drivers from North Lake College.

I know the idea of walking through a parking garage is antithesis to most people here, but minimizing exposure to sun/rain is a big deal to office workers, especially ones you want to coax out of their cars and onto transit...

I honestly don't understand the point of the park and ride lot. This area will primarily serve the adjacent Apartments, NUMEROUS hotel rooms, and the new Hidden Ridge developement. None of these will be driving and parking to ride the train as they are all right next door.
I know it's not a big space, but you could certainly fit some more residential in there and just have drop off driveway. You really only need a couple of bus stops as both NLC and Convention Center Station are more suitable for nearby bus routes.
So, to your point, the primary focus here should be pedestrian access.

[dontbringmedown]

Verizon has been working on plans for a big mixed use development the south side of this station for years. Wouldn't be surprised if the DART work is an indicator of other things about to break loose.

[lakewoodhobo]

In the renderings from Gensler you can see a bridge connecting the DART station to the Hidden Ridge campus.

05HiddenRidge_CreditGenslerHIRDL_HiddenRidgeNorthAerial_Credit-Gensler.jpg

verizon10.jpg

The only thing I can think of is that the bridge will be a continuation of the new road in the aerial below.

Screen Shot 2020-01-30 at 3.05.27 PM.jpg

[muncien]

If you look closely at the footprint of the station (footings already exist), you can see that the bridge in the renderings is actually a rebuilt Green Park Dr... not a new point of access.
If they were to extend the eastbound platform all the way to Green Park Dr., it won't be that big of a deal. But as of now, the footings don't go there and they'd have to rework the creek a bit to make it work. Neither renderings from Gensler nor DART show that platform being extended. Hopefully, that's just a missed detail in the renders, but I fear that it's truly being left out.
I know this isn't a big deal to most, but for practical purposes it doesn't make sense, and I kid you not that dozens will walk on the tracks as a 'shortcut' to get around every day. Garland station has a similarly stupid setup (due to freight ROW instead of creek), and it happens all the time.

[Cbdallas]

I wonder if it would be possible to create a partnership between the AA Center and the Irving and Dallas Convention centers and any other event space that is off the DART rail stations where a holder of a ticket stub could use that as a pass on the DART trains the day of that event. It would encourage ridership reduce traffic. I wonder if any other cities do this kind of thing.

[TNWE]

I wonder if it would be possible to create a partnership between the AA Center and the Irving and Dallas Convention centers and any other event space that is off the DART rail stations where a holder of a ticket stub could use that as a pass on the DART trains the day of that event. It would encourage ridership reduce traffic. I wonder if any other cities do this kind of thing.

DART already allows free rides for jury duty and on election day if you show your mailed card, but those are civic duties, not entertainment events.

As it stands, someone going to a game at the AAC would be paying at least $30 to park, vs. $3 for a PM pass that would cover the round trip. I'm not sure that the barrier to entry is cost so much as perception and potentially travel time...

[Tivo_Kenevil]

I wonder if it would be possible to create a partnership between the AA Center and the Irving and Dallas Convention centers and any other event space that is off the DART rail stations where a holder of a ticket stub could use that as a pass on the DART trains the day of that event. It would encourage ridership reduce traffic. I wonder if any other cities do this kind of thing.

DART already allows free rides for jury duty and on election day if you show your mailed card, but those are civic duties, not entertainment events.

As it stands, someone going to a game at the AAC would be paying at least $30 to park, vs. $3 for a PM pass that would cover the round trip. I'm not sure that the barrier to entry is cost so much as perception and potentially travel time...

There's a lot of people who just are reluctant. I took a friend to a Mavs game via DART. He wasn't aware how simple it was.

[cowboyeagle05]

Yeah, people also think that parking in the suburbs is free. It all has its costs. A combined ticket is nice though. El Centro students have to request their free DART pass. The college adds a sticker to the student's ID once they have paid all their class fees. DART cops have to make sure the ID has the proper sticker to permit them to ride without a ticket. DCCCD pays DART some amount of money for the Free passes though.

[tanzoak]

It seriously is one of the worst consumer experiences ever. Bumpy, LOUD, slow as molasses, obnoxiously meandering routes (okay, this is DART's fault), inconsistent connections, and completely unreliable. Sure some of that can be helped, but nearly all of it is because the bus is subject to vehicular traffic AND has to stop every block or so. Those are factors that have no solution.

They absolutely have solutions! Tried and true ones, at that: bus-only lanes and stop consolidation.

[tanzoak]

^ A short comparison of farebox recovery ratios: https://metro.fandom.com/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio

DART is an outlier on the low end at 13%. Keep in mind that is operating expenses only, not capital expenses.

I've heard it said that the money DART gets from fares doesn't do much more than cover the cost of collecting and processing them. I don't know how true that is.

ADDENDUM: More info from https://www.njspotlight.com/2015/07/15- ... -revenues/

Top 10 farebox recovery ratios nationwide:

1.San Francisco Bay Area Rapid Transit, California: 65%
2. Metro-North Commuter Railroad, New York: 55%
3. MTA Long Island Rail Road, New York: 48%
4. Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority, D.C.: 46%
5. Northeast Illinois Regional Commuter Railroad (Metra), Illinois: 45%
6. San Diego Metropolitan Transit System, California: 43%
7. Chicago Transit Authority, Illinois: 42%
8. MTA New York City Transit, New York: 41%
9. NJ Transit, New Jersey: 40%
10. PATH, New Jersey/New York: 40%

Free transit is a bad idea. If we have those extra dollars to spend, they should be spent on making the service actually useful, rather than making the same terrible service free. That's from both an efficient and effective public services standpoint, as well as a social equity one: what's more onerous, the $48/mo DART pass or the massive amount of time flushed down the drain due to slow and unreliable service?

[tamtagon]

Maybe the population growth in downtown neighborhoods will allow buses to become more functional.

[tanzoak]

Maybe the population growth in downtown neighborhoods will allow buses to become more functional.

I mean, yeah, this is the biggest issue. Downtown Dallas needs another 300k employees working there. The lack of a critical mass of employment, and job sprawl more generally, really makes effective mass transit difficult to achieve.

[muncien]

I believe one of the biggest disservices, and probably simplest fixes, is the perceived 'penalty' for short distance riders. I know we have said this in the past, but with go-pass adoption, I think the solution is simpler than ever. For users who only plan on grabbing a ride in dense urban area (CBD, and maybe Las Colinas Urban Center), there should be a super cheap fare ($1?) or even free ride to help mitigate local traffic and parking. This ride should still be managed through the app and require a 'ticket' (not just free boarding), but it should be dirt cheap. Checking for tickets between Pearle and West End doesn't happen anyway, so it seems like a no brainer.

[TNWE]

I believe one of the biggest disservices, and probably simplest fixes, is the perceived 'penalty' for short distance riders. I know we have said this in the past, but with go-pass adoption, I think the solution is simpler than ever. For users who only plan on grabbing a ride in dense urban area (CBD, and maybe Las Colinas Urban Center), there should be a super cheap fare ($1?) or even free ride to help mitigate local traffic and parking. This ride should still be managed through the app and require a 'ticket' (not just free boarding), but it should be dirt cheap. Checking for tickets between Pearle and West End doesn't happen anyway, so it seems like a no brainer.

I still think DART's big mistake was not making the GoPass Tap cards a touch on/touch off system and going to zone-based fares (since, as many here have noted, the rail system is effectively Commuter Rail running LRT stock). The app is good and all, but basically everyone who uses it just keeps an unactivated ticket on there and only activates it when they see Fare enforcement or police. A tap on/tap off system makes it very easy to know where someone got on and off the train, and charge the appropriate fare within a given zone. Plus, it would give DART a much more accurate picture of where people are going when they take transit, and help them to plan services accordingly.

[quixomniac]

I still think DART's big mistake was not making the GoPass Tap cards a touch on/touch off system and going to zone-based fares (since, as many here have noted, the rail system is effectively Commuter Rail running LRT stock). The app is good and all, but basically everyone who uses it just keeps an unactivated ticket on there and only activates it when they see Fare enforcement or police. A tap on/tap off system makes it very easy to know where someone got on and off the train, and charge the appropriate fare within a given zone. Plus, it would give DART a much more accurate picture of where people are going when they take transit, and help them to plan services accordingly.

Seems like an obvious idea, anyone know why it hasnt been implemented ? Riders should have the financial incentive to use it. I know some Dublin's Light rail uses it. Tap on/off. I feel this would be cheaper to implement.if you miss it on the train, you can tap off at the station.

But this is in my opinion outdated at this point. You shouldnt even have to pull out your phone. GPS tracking should be enough to tell if you are on the train and if you got off. Perhaps free wifi on trains would help encourage usage, and as soon as you are out of WIFI range, you are considered not on . Otherwise, charge a flat fee for the day.

[Redblock]

Coming soon to rail stations near you.


https://www.railwayage.com/news/dart-wi ... ick-maker/

[muncien]

Coming soon to rail stations near you.


https://www.railwayage.com/news/dart-wi ... ick-maker/

I saw this the other day... Is this seriously an issue? I have never heard of this being a problem. Seems weird... I don't think I've ever seen something like this implemented. Is someone on the DART board related to the contractor? LOL

[Tivo_Kenevil]

Darts been installing lights and guard rails at the stations recently. I think this is motivated by the deaths that have occurred along the rail stations recently.

[TNWE]

Coming soon to rail stations near you.


https://www.railwayage.com/news/dart-wi ... ick-maker/

I saw this the other day... Is this seriously an issue? I have never heard of this being a problem. Seems weird... I don't think I've ever seen something like this implemented. Is someone on the DART board related to the contractor? LOL

ADA compliance - it's to prevent someone with a white cane from mistaking the car gap for a door and walking/falling in. A noble goal, but also one of the reasons transit construction costs in the US are exploding.

A lot of people talk about how cars are "unfairly subsidized" but no one ever considers that the top-tier transit systems in the US have a subsidy of their own in that many stations have a grandfather exception to many ADA provisions, and were built without any of the environmental impact studies or "betterments" required of projects today. If NY and Chicago had to retrofit their stations and track to meet modern ADA and environmental standards, their fares would have to skyrocket to cover the massive costs.

[itsjrd1964]

There are 2 sets of these already at the Parker Road station. The installation differs from the picture as all the barrier 'candlesticks' are the same height. I wasn't thinking about the ADA angle when I first saw the Parker Road installation; I figured they didn't want anybody trying to hop over the coupling space on the transit center side of the platform in order to get to the other side of that train, or past it to the train on the far side. It's definitely insuring that anyone headed to/from the trains and platforms, must go by way of each far end when train cars are present.

[northsouth]

https://www.dart.org/about/board/boardagendas/wholeitem7_28jan20.pdf

Seems to me that DART is only doing this now since the FTA is getting on their case about it. Most other major light rail systems seem to have already implemented these years ago. Deadline for completion is July 31, and given the simplicity of installation, I would imagine that barring a supply screw-up it should easily be met.