Dallas Area Rapid Transit

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Tucy
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Tucy » 01 Oct 2021 16:17

The_Overdog wrote:That didn't answer the question. What is the other driver in that specific area?


Not sure which "specific area" you are talking about. But in general, I don't really know what may or may not have caused the density, but probably has to do with access to highways, access to jobs, etc. What is very clear for most of the densely populated census tracts is that the density has not been caused by the Red Line.

Out of about 24 dense (over 10,000/square mile) census tracts along the Red Line/US 75 corridor, I can find about 5 for which a reasonable argument can be made that the Red Line caused their population density (and even for those, it's only a reasonable, straight-faced argument, not a slam dunk by any means).

Starting from the north. The northernmost densely populated census tract is 319.04, at the intersection of US 75 and PGBT. This is one of the few for which a reasonable claim can be made for the density having been induced by the Red Line.

The next group of census tracts is a cluster at the northwest quadrant of US 75 and I-635. Yes, at a glance it is along the Red Line route. But the nearest station is Spring Valley, on the other side of US 75. The very nearest residences I can find are more than 1 mile from the Spring Valley Station (and it would be anything but a pleasant walk). Keep in mind, this is the very closest. Every other residence in those 4 densely-populated tracts is even further. It's pretty clear the density of these tracts has nothing to do with the Red Line.

The next possibility is Census Tract 131.07. It contains a concentration of apartments (most of which appear to pre-date the Red Line. Regardless, the nearest point to a Red Line Station is about 1 mile (and not a particularly pleasant walk).

Census Tract 78.15 looks like one of the better candidates, but the vast majority of the residences are well over 1/2 mile from a Red Line Station (and, again, not a particularly pleasant pedestrian experience). (And most of it probably pre-dates the Red Line.)

Then there is a cluster of 7 tracts at the southeast corner of US 75 and Northwest Highway. There may be an argument for the southernmost two of those (but even those suffer from the facts that a good portion of the density probably predates the Red Line and most of it is well more than 1/2 mile from a station. The other five tracts in this cluster are just too far from a station to make a reasonable argument that they were densified because of the Red Line (in addition to substantially predating the Red Line).

Then we move on South and get to the pie-shaped Tract 7.06 and 7.05 directly South. Everybody living in those tracts is about a mile (and most cases more) from a Red Line Station.

A decent argument can be made for 7.03 (South of Fitzhugh), but even there, a good portion of the tract is more than 1/2 mile from the Station.
7.04 (between Blackburn and Lemmon) I'll give you.
17.03 (South of Lemmon): the vast majority of the residential in this tract is well over 1/2 mile from the Station.

East of US75, Tract 9.01 (between Henderson and Fitzhugh) and 9.02 (to the Southeast of 9.01): not close to a station.

8.02, between Fitzhugh and Haskell (and 8.01 to its Southeast)The bulk of the residential in this tract is well over 1/2 mile from a Station.

Even for 16.01, between Haskell and Hall, which actually contains the entrance to a Station, the argument for the Red Line causing the density is weak because almost all of the residential is more than 1/2 mile from the Station.

16.02 to the South and Southeast of 16.01 is just too far from any Station.

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electricron
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby electricron » 01 Oct 2021 20:11

A link to the US Census Bureau latest density maps
https://mtgis-portal.geo.census.gov/arc ... 2fd7ff6eb7

Many of the 10,000+/square mile tracts are near light rail lines and stations.
Whether these tracts grew because of DART light rail being built first, or they were already there encouraging DART to build to them, does it really matter?

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tamtagon
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby tamtagon » 01 Oct 2021 21:29

Increasing population density along the lines depends on the central business district, spoke and wheel.... The routes were selected because they were the paths of least resistance. The payoff will be substantial if it ever happens, but the CBD has to continue it's residential increases.

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Redblock
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Redblock » 06 Oct 2021 13:13

Here is an interview with DART's new CEO, Nadine Lee.


https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews ... adine-lee/

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northsouth
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 03 Nov 2021 18:46

Today, for the first time, I saw a pair of cars other than 135 and 222 that've had their destination signs replaced with LED ones. Cars 188 and 182, working the Green Line.

As an aside, 135 and 222 have been coupled to each other and running seemingly exclusively on the Orange Line for almost a year now. I can't rule out them having run on other lines, but I figure if that was the case I would've seen them by now.

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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby 754 » 05 Nov 2021 11:56

northsouth wrote:Today, for the first time, I saw a pair of cars other than 135 and 222 that've had their destination signs replaced with LED ones. Cars 188 and 182, working the Green Line.

As an aside, 135 and 222 have been coupled to each other and running seemingly exclusively on the Orange Line for almost a year now. I can't rule out them having run on other lines, but I figure if that was the case I would've seen them by now.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KDpJeKMvII at 4:18 in this video you can see these two LRVs on the green line. It looks like they will finally be using Led signed cars on other lines besides the orange line.

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Redblock
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Redblock » 15 Nov 2021 13:56


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northsouth
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 16 Dec 2021 18:56

At least 10 cars now have LED signs. Seems the rollout has begun in earnest.

itsjrd1964
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby itsjrd1964 » 18 Dec 2021 02:42

northsouth wrote:At least 10 cars now have LED signs. Seems the rollout has begun in earnest.


Good. So many of the existing cars have had problems with their scrolling mechanisms. It can easily throw off folks trying to catch the right train. Otherwise, it just looks tacky, especially the ones that are stuck on an upside-down destination name.

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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby itsjrd1964 » 19 Feb 2022 05:29

Regional Transportation Council looks to extend DART rail line from Plano to McKinney

https://communityimpact.com/dallas-fort ... -mckinney/

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Cbdallas
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Cbdallas » 23 Feb 2022 11:32

What is the real issue and what could be done to have our rail system run when it is most needed during winter storms. Apparently Dallas still has winter so long term what can be done this makes us look bad as a metro.

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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby itsjrd1964 » 23 Feb 2022 13:29

There should be some kind of heating elements for the electric lines on the light rail routes and/or heating elements on the pantagrams (the metal go-betweens on the roofs of the light rail cars that make contact with the electric lines), as well as heating elements on the rails themselves. If technology exists for any of the above, DART would likely consider it too costly.

Similar heating setups should be considered for medium-to-high freeway overpasses/ramps so they could be passable in inclement winter weather. TxDOT would probably react the same as DART.

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northsouth
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 22 Mar 2022 11:07

The way that light rail lines in colder places generally deal with ice on the wires is to put scrapers on the pantographs. There is of course the cost of acquiring and installing them onto the trains, but also they add wear to the wires and reduce their longevity. Given the rarity of ice storms (we've had a few ice events over the last two years, after years without any), it's not surprising that it's not seen as worthwhile.

What I do find odd is that I feel like DART used to be a bit more cavalier about running trains in icy conditions; they'd just run trains at high frequencies to try to keep the wires clean. Now, one of the plans for winter weather entails truncating service on all branches and running high frequencies on the core, but they've never implemented this scheme and every time have ended up jumping past it to the next level where they cancel all the trains.

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Tucy
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Tucy » 12 Apr 2022 13:13

Average weekday DART ridership at the DFW station:

FY 2014: 922
FY 2015: 898
FY 2016: 968
FY 2017: 976
FY 2018: 929
FY 2019: 951
FY 2020: 768
FY 2021: 893

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 12 Apr 2022 18:02

Tucy wrote:Average weekday DART ridership at the DFW station:

FY 2014: 922
FY 2015: 898
FY 2016: 968
FY 2017: 976
FY 2018: 929
FY 2019: 951
FY 2020: 768
FY 2021: 893

Steadily working our way out of pandemic...

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 14 Apr 2022 14:22

Presented without comment, except to mention this is widely read airline industry/travel blog.

MY (MIS)ADVENTURES ON THE DALLAS DART…

Someone could have warned me that I probably should have avoided the Dallas DART (light rail) when traveling from DFW Airport to central Dallas. Then again, then I would not have been able to witness a panoply of debauchery, defiance, and deceit.

https://liveandletsfly.com/dallas-dart-dfw/

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Cmacemm
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Cmacemm » 14 Apr 2022 16:00

Hannibal Lecter wrote:Presented without comment, except to mention this is widely read airline industry/travel blog.

MY (MIS)ADVENTURES ON THE DALLAS DART…

Someone could have warned me that I probably should have avoided the Dallas DART (light rail) when traveling from DFW Airport to central Dallas. Then again, then I would not have been able to witness a panoply of debauchery, defiance, and deceit.

https://liveandletsfly.com/dallas-dart-dfw/

Your boy sounds like a Grade A wuss who has never been on public transit in any large city

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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 14 Apr 2022 17:18

The problem is we are not New York City so these stories sound more significant when they aren't surrounded by a dense urban city without lots of riders.

I was verbally attacked riding at night riding from Cedars Station to Garland where two guys demanded to borrow my phone and got in my face about it on the train. I refused and another rider intervened by telling them to leave me alone so they started cussing him out and got off at West Village Station cussing the whole train out. Now did I keep riding DART of course. I even later bought a monthly membership but when you are in Chicago or New York it feels like just a part of the culture to some people, but in Dallas, they expect southern hospitality in the above-ground transit system in a suburban-based metro. Is it unrealistic probably, but entire laws are passed on unrealistic expecattooons of behavior.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 14 Apr 2022 19:08

Cmacemm wrote:Your boy sounds like a Grade A wuss who has never been on public transit in any large city


"Matthew is an avid traveler who calls Los Angeles home. Each year he travels more than 200,000 miles by air and has visited more than 135 countries over the last decade. Working both in the aviation industry and as a travel consultant, Matthew has been featured in major media outlets around the world.

Studying international relations, American government, and later obtaining a law degree, Matthew has a plethora of knowledge outside the travel industry that leads to a unique writing perspective. He has served in the United States Air Force, on Capitol Hill, and in the White House."

https://liveandletsfly.com/about/

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 14 Apr 2022 21:31

Hannibal Lecter wrote:
Cmacemm wrote:Your boy sounds like a Grade A wuss who has never been on public transit in any large city


"Matthew is an avid traveler who calls Los Angeles home. Each year he travels more than 200,000 miles by air and has visited more than 135 countries over the last decade. Working both in the aviation industry and as a travel consultant, Matthew has been featured in major media outlets around the world.

Studying international relations, American government, and later obtaining a law degree, Matthew has a plethora of knowledge outside the travel industry that leads to a unique writing perspective. He has served in the United States Air Force, on Capitol Hill, and in the White House."

https://liveandletsfly.com/about/


Meh... After reading..... Idiots yelling slurs and smokin is something I've seen in other Metros in the US.

I once saw a homeless man defecate in an NYC subway station.
I saw an entire Muslim family on a mattress begging for money in Paris next to a subway terminal.

What was described here was mild in comparison. I tend to agree.. what a wuss..

https://youtu.be/4ztTl_YpD6A

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Cmacemm
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Cmacemm » 15 Apr 2022 11:06

Hannibal Lecter wrote:
Cmacemm wrote:Your boy sounds like a Grade A wuss who has never been on public transit in any large city


"Matthew is an avid traveler who calls Los Angeles home. Each year he travels more than 200,000 miles by air and has visited more than 135 countries over the last decade. Working both in the aviation industry and as a travel consultant, Matthew has been featured in major media outlets around the world.

Studying international relations, American government, and later obtaining a law degree, Matthew has a plethora of knowledge outside the travel industry that leads to a unique writing perspective. He has served in the United States Air Force, on Capitol Hill, and in the White House."

https://liveandletsfly.com/about/


Yeah, this isn't helping your argument LOL

Privileged white boy takes train and gets scared

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potatocoins
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby potatocoins » 15 Apr 2022 13:28

cowboyeagle05 wrote:The problem is we are not New York City so these stories sound more significant when they aren't surrounded by a dense urban city without lots of riders.


This is the biggest difference for me. I've found myself feeling uncomfortable walking around Dallas at times simply because there have been times where there appears to be nobody else in sight. Same goes for the DART too.

I get that a city and public transportation may have some questionable activity, but as long as there are enough other people around I really wouldn't pay much attention to it. It's a different story when it's literally just you and someone else and that's it.

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mdg109
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby mdg109 » 18 Apr 2022 00:16

When I read the blog title I definitely thought it was going to be a lot worse. This just sound like normal DART during off peak hours. Still, I wish DART would just come up with a solution for fare enforcement, cleaner trains, and a better transit experience.

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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby IcedCowboyCoffee » 11 Aug 2022 13:14

RAISE grant approved for some much needed sidewalk expansion in south Dallas along the blue line.

17 MB pdf file of all U.S. projects are here, but the relevant page for us is this one:
raise.JPG
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby undefinedprocess » 17 Aug 2022 00:03

Know this [DART Streetcar Feasibility Report - July 2022 - PDF] was posted and discussed in the Discord, so posting it here for all of the forum-only folks...

Which oh yeah, by the way, if you aren't in the Discord server, what are you doing? Lots of great QOL/usability changes to the server itself and Discord as a whole as of late. Join via the link in my signature! :)

Back to the topic at hand. What are each of y'all's top 3 in-Dallas routes, and what are your top 3 outside-of-Dallas routes? Also, doesn't have to be for current alignment/route of the line, just wanna know which areas/corridors in the study that you all want to see served by a streetcar expansion/new line the most.

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potatocoins
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby potatocoins » 17 Aug 2022 12:11

Thanks for sharing! I just skimmed and looked at the maps, but it's kinda crazy to think about any sort of suburban streetcar line. I'd really like to see Dallas just embrace buses more rather than trying to invest so much in streetcars everywhere.

Back to the topic at hand. What are each of y'all's top 3 in-Dallas routes, and what are your top 3 outside-of-Dallas routes? Also, doesn't have to be for current alignment/route of the line, just wanna know which areas/corridors in the study that you all want to see served by a streetcar expansion/new line the most.


in-Dallas:
  • Knox/Henderson extension
  • Dallas Central Link
I'm a little tired of the 'build it and they will come' developments, which is why I'm not on board with some of the other ones. I'm glad we are being more forward thinking and improving infrastructure all over Dallas, but it feels like we are almost spread too thin and then we end up with bike lanes that don't get much usage and streetcars that aren't seeing much activity.

outside-of-Dallas:
  • Richardson Main St
  • Downtown Plano/Collin Creek connector
I could be on board with the Richardson Main St connector, if it meant a lot more density/walkability being built around each of those streetcar stations. This would also potentially bring more traffic to those existing Red Line stations. For the same reasons, I would also like the Downtown Plano/Collin Creek connector route.

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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 17 Aug 2022 14:29

In Dallas
  • Bishop Arts to Jefferson Blvd
  • Deep Ellum/Baylor to Lakewood
  • Downtown/Uptown to Cedar Springs/Love Field

Outside of Dallas
  • Downtown Garland to White Rock Lake
  • Downtown Arlington to Cowboys/Globe Life/Texas Live
  • Stockyards/Cultural District to Sundance Square
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby LongonBigD » 17 Aug 2022 16:51

In this order

*MATA extension to Knox
*Bishop Arts extension to Jefferson/Dallas Zoo

Daydream:
*Henderson from Knox to Ross
*Ross south to DTD
*Greenville Ave from Henderson north to Mockingbird
*Greenville Ave from Mockingbird north to at least Park Ln

As long as I'm dreaming:
*Connect MATA to OakLawn
*Oaklawn to Design District
*Design District to West Dallas (Continental Bridge REQUIRES a streetcar)

The possibilities are endless, it's only money!

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northsouth
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 17 Aug 2022 21:17

In-Dallas
-Ross/Lower Greenville
-Fort Worth Ave/west Commerce/Main St
-Cesar Chavez/S.M. Wright

Ultimate ambition/fantasy: the latest version of a map I've been working on for a few years. It's been a while since I really looked at it so I might make some changes soon. There are also alternate configurations on how to route some service patterns that I should add.

Outside of Dallas I don't think there's anywhere that would really work well, or wouldn't be better served by something else. Las Colinas should revamp/expand the APT, Richardson should just put in a downtown station on the Red Line like was the plan originally, and so on.

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longhorn
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby longhorn » 12 Oct 2022 22:52

What is DARTs plan to replace their rolling stock. Maybe with some Stadler FLIRTS or something, the original rolling stock should be approaching 20 years old if not older.

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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby itsjrd1964 » 13 Oct 2022 01:19

longhorn wrote:What is DARTs plan to replace their rolling stock. Maybe with some Stadler FLIRTS or something, the original rolling stock should be approaching 20 years old if not older.


Light rail started for DART in 1996, so at least some of their fleet has to be that old. I'm guessing, with the destination display upgrading going on to change from back-lit panels to LED displays, that DART isn't looking to change all their light rail fleet out. IMO, they should. It's looking a bit long-in-the-tooth on some of the cars.

The DCTA A-train cars and those used on Trinity Metro's TexRail would be nice upgrades, if DART is looking to trade out (or up).

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northsouth
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 13 Oct 2022 21:23

From what I remember from reading a board meeting presentation a few years ago, the plan (pre-covid at least) was to start introducing new trains to replace the oldest ones in 2025. The oldest trains were built in 1995, with a mid-lifetime rebuilt at 15 years (so around 2010; the program to add the low-floor middle sections was about 2009-10, so that was a convenient overlap in timing), for a full planned lifetime of 30 years. Procurement and construction would have a lead time of 2 years or so.

The plan is to have the new trains be mostly-to-entirely low-floor, like most new light rail vehicles are. There was a recent item from the last few months (I think talking about what to use those covid surplus funds on; I really wish the DART website had full/open archive of their board presentations instead of just the most recent one) saying that two infrastructural projects that need to be done before they can run new trains are (1) upgrade the signalling system on the Red/Blue lines to match the newer system on the Green/Orange lines, and (2) fully raise the platforms at any Red/Blue line stations that that hasn't already been done at. The Red/Blue lines use old-fashion block signalling, while the Green/Orange use a moving-block system that is more computer-based (ever notice how the newer-built lines only have signals at switches instead of at regular(ish) intervals like the older lines?). The platform part is less critical (you can still have the new trains stop at the unraised platforms), but wouldn't be an issue if DART didn't keep cheaping out and doing the minimum on the platform modification projects in 2008-10 and the more recent one over the last few years.

As far as manufacturer, I don't know what way they'll go. Kinkisharyo, who built the current fleet, tends to do custom models for each system; there aren't any cars anywhere exactly the same as DART's, but San Jose's are the closest, for example. By contrast, Siemens currently dominates the North American market, mostly with its S70/S700 type cars; on any given system the cars are essentially identical. Given that DART was designed for cars of custom dimensions, I don't know how much change an off-the-shelf model would require to fit. To my knowledge, Stadler, builder of the A-Train/TEXRail/Silver Line cars, has done electric light rail cars, just not in America yet. They would have to be different from the GTW (A-Train) and FLIRT (TEXRail/Silver Line) cars, since those are built to a loading gauge compatible with freight trains but not light rail. If you tried putting a DCTA train on LRT tracks, it would smack against the platforms upon entry to a station.

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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 14 Oct 2022 16:31

The technical details of the different trains are def out of my league, but if DART switched to a low floor across the entire train, can they do that? Wouldnt they still have to have those annoying step-ups to the next car in each segment, or is that just because of the two different types the newer middle low section and the old 1995 higher floor sections? I just assumed part of the reason for the setup is that it has to go over some mechanical stuff like the wheels. I am stupid on this part of the DART system, so feel free to dumb it down for me.

Personally, if they do bring in any new cars in the future, I hope they are low-floor and I hope they have more streetcar-like bodies rather than long-distance body designs like the A-Train and TexRail designs. I know DART isn't a streetcar or a Heavy rail system but a car design that looks more streetcar-adjacent rather than a commuter rail for far-flung out burbs is a brand desire that I think would do DART greatly.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

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northsouth
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 14 Oct 2022 22:32

Having to go over the wheels/axles is an issue for low floors. The middle trucks (sets of wheels) on DART's trains (and most LRVs) are unpowered (i.e. no big motor that has to go somewhere), so one thing that a lot of modern trams do in Europe is not have full-length axles on middle trucks, instead giving each wheel its own short axle. This allows for a low-floor passage between segments; whether this is just wide enough to be a passageway or wide enough for seats depends on how low the floor is. However, there are drawbacks; lower floors, and especially doing the thing I just described, leave less room for suspension systems, which means a rougher ride. On well-maintained, more often than not street-running tracks, where the trams never get going very fast, this is less of an issue. But DART, where most track is on private right-of-way with speed between stations often reaching 50 to 65 MPH, this is an issue.

You can implement this setup in varying degrees, of course. The FLIRTs on TEXRail, for example, have a relatively low floor along most of their length, with higher floors at the ends where they have to fit traction motors and electrical equipment under the floor, but the height of the low floor is higher than it would be for like a streetcar.

The other option to have full level boarding is to instead of making the floors of the trains lower, is to make the platforms higher. This is how subways/metros work, since they never have to consider street running, or having to navigate parts of a system that historically were streetcar lines where people were boarding from at or near ground level. Los Angeles' light rail system is a rare example of a fully high-floor light rail system. One thing though is that its stations end up needing space-consuming ramps to reach station platforms that otherwise could be much closer to street level. Converting DART to high-floor would be very expensive, since every station would need to be rebuilt to a much greater degree than the low-floor platform modifications we're used to. Also, the entire vehicle fleet would need to be replaced with ones that are capable of both high- and low-platform loading, since you can't just quickly change every station at once.

Personally, I've always like that DART's cars are a bit older-fashioned, with mostly high floors, physical destination signs (until nowadays; at this point it's getting rarer to see a car that hasn't been upgraded to LED than to see on that has), and exposed wheels/trucks. There are even some angles (like if you're standing a few feet lower than the train) where you can see clear through the space around the non-powered trucks.

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zaphod
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby zaphod » 16 Oct 2022 10:24

If we are fantasizing about new trains, what would it take to implement semi-automated train driving, specifically to make platform gates a reality? The trains would probably still need human drivers because DART has miles of track with road crossings and some street running that is unpredictable. But if the trains could stop at certain spot on the platform every time, then there could sliding gates or doors. This means stations could be fenced in, and could have fare gates. The fare gates would not be to make money, since all of this would be more expensive than the current honor system. Instead it would keep the vagrants out.

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northsouth
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 16 Oct 2022 21:08

Given how poorly DART maintains the elevators at the stations that have them, I don't have much faith in their ability to keep platform doors working well even on the underground stations on D2 where they plan to put them in. Off the top of my head, I don't know of any system anywhere that does platform doors at fully exposed open-air stations; such things would end up being finicky in the elements and need controlled conditions to work well. Such stations are the norm on heavy rail/metro stations, but not light rail. Similarly, most of DART's stations are designed in such a way that limiting access to one or two points would be awkward at best and detrimental at worst. These are things that have to be considered early on in the planning process about what mode of service the system will be. Heavy rail was considered for DART early on, but was rejected due to the higher costs of building such a system: fully grade-separated right-of-way, requiring extensive tunneling and elevated lines, and larger, self-contained stations.

While maintaining passenger safety is important, focusing too much on keeping homeless people out is an example of treating the symptoms and not the cause. Not going to go off on it here, but long story short you fix homelessness by giving them homes. It's a bigger issue that requires concerted action by higher levels of government than a transit agency, but spending millions of dollars to fence off train stations is throwing money at the wrong solution to the problem (and wouldn't work that well at keeping people out anyways).

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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby longhorn » 25 Oct 2022 15:20

Curious, why didn't DART choose a metro rail system like MARTA or DC's Metro?

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northsouth
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 25 Oct 2022 22:06

Mainly money, also a bit of the draw of a shiny new thing. Reagan's government was less willing to spend big bucks on heavy rail systems than his predecessors, especially after pretty much all of the Great Society era metro systems ended up being more expensive to build than originally thought. WMATA and BART were the only two to really get close to their full intended build-outs. Miami and Baltimore's systems ended up being single lines (Miami has since built a short branch line, and one of Baltimore's planned lines was later built as light rail), while MARTA has several stubs for unbuilt branches. Turns out that when you only partially build a system, and often fail to integrate it well with the bus network, coupled with several decades of poor urban planning, ridership isn't what you want it to be.

About ten earlier, a new model of rail system was being developed. Inspired largely by German streetcar systems, which instead of being abandoned were instead upgraded with designated rights-of-way in/along thoroughfares and mainline rail corridors, light rail filled the gap between fully street-running streetcars and fully isolated heavy rail systems. A key feature is flexibility: you can run the same trains on private ROW, down medians on wide streets, and in a few cases even in mixed traffic with automobile traffic. Downtown areas are usually both the places with the greatest need for tunneled portions (since building elevated rail in urban cores has been out of fashion for ages), but also the most expensive places to do so. With light rail, you can run on say an abandoned/lightly used freight rail corridor for most of the line, but when you hit downtown switch to a street. And where tunneling is truly necessary (or as a legacy system you already have one), the train is just at home there as it is on the street. Also, stations need only to be a platform or two with a few shelters instead of a massive building.

Most surviving American streetcar systems had held on to what they had left largely because they had a tunnel somewhere so running buses would be difficult to impossible; these were mostly upgraded with new trains and more dedicated stations instead of bus-stop type stops. Soon, new second-generation systems began appearing; these more often than not used a lot of old freight rail lines (as these were increasingly common as megamergers and deregulation ran through the rail industry), with downtown tunneling rare. Dallas in the 1980s was chock-full of soon-to-be abandoned or made secondary rail corridors (as opposed to Fort Worth, where of all the spokes their network formed, only one had been even partially abandoned). Even then, through most of the decade the plan was to put the lines underground through downtown. It wasn't until about 1990 that due to cost concerns it was decided to put the first line at-grade through downtown and the second line (what we now know as D2) would be figured out later.
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northsouth
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 09 Dec 2022 18:06

https://www.dart.org/about/board/boardagendas/custitem12_13dec22.pdf
Update on new LRV procurement and associated programs. Of note:
-new LRVs will begin design next year, production in late 2026 (so likely 2027)
-construction work to raise platforms not already rebuilt to full raise will begin next year
-new signaling systems on Red/Blue lines will being construction in 2025

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 27 Dec 2022 13:59

Last week my wife took the train in from DFW Airport. While going through downtown the train stopped, around 10-11 pm. They announced there was some problem with another train ahead, and kicked everyone off. In -2 wind chill weather. With no shelter or alternate transportation.

On Christmas Day afernoon I drove her to the CityPlace station so she could wait inside for her train to the airport. Her texts to me (with minor editing).

Elevator broken. Taking the stairs.

2nd level Escalator broken. Carried them (her bags) down to the next one that was broken. The elevator was full of homeless people puking and smoking pot. I carried them all the way to the bottom. This place is worse than West end station. Trash, clothes, food, puke on steps, just gross

Not one non homeless person down here

Nice thought but I think it's rather wait outside next time

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Tucy
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Tucy » 27 Dec 2022 14:49

You need to bite the bullet and start driving your wife to the airport. ;-)

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 27 Dec 2022 15:14

^ I do sometimes. And sometimes we Uber. But she'll probably be based at DFW again in the near future, which means employee parking passes for both of us, which is the best of all worlds.

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Cbdallas
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Cbdallas » 29 Dec 2022 11:27

We need a ton more density built around all of the Dallas urban stations. For instance the Cityplace station on both sides of Central should have a ton more density and if you lived there you could ride the system to another Station with density to shop eat or work. It seems we built out a system that is ahead of its needs and as a result there are not enough people riding it regularly to make it feel safe and comfortable. Hopefully someday all of the Dallas stations will have much more development around them which will make it work better.

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electricron
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby electricron » 05 Jan 2023 06:55

Cbdallas wrote:We need a ton more density built around all of the Dallas urban stations. For instance the Cityplace station on both sides of Central should have a ton more density and if you lived there you could ride the system to another Station with density to shop eat or work. It seems we built out a system that is ahead of its needs and as a result there are not enough people riding it regularly to make it feel safe and comfortable. Hopefully someday all of the Dallas stations will have much more development around them which will make it work better.

I agree, high density real estate projects should be built around train stations. But it is not the responsibility of DART to build them. Real estate developers should build them. Of course, it would be nice if the local city governments were to rezone these areas.

itsjrd1964
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby itsjrd1964 » 06 Jan 2023 16:50

I've said it before, but DART simply does not devote enough capital to escalators/elevators, and needs to badly. Too many times I've had to take the very tall stairs when the elevators and/or escalators are out (especially at Mockingbird and Cityplace). The downtime for escalator repair at Cityplace is entirely too long.

(I know all too well about why some of the train station elevators go down at some stations; I've had to call or text DART's office more than once to report "messes".)

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Matt777
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Matt777 » 06 Jan 2023 17:35

I don't know if this is allowed in the USA or for DART, but I wonder if we could switch to a model of letting DART be a transit operator/property developer and operator like the highly successful model Hong Kong uses for the MTR.

Article: https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/o ... erty-model

" The key is a business model called “Rail plus Property” (R+P). For new rail lines, the government provides MTR with land “development rights” at stations or depots along the route. To convert these development rights to land, MTR pays the government a land premium based on the land’s market value without the railway.

MTR then builds the new rail line and partners with private developers to build properties. The choice of private developer is made through a competitive tender process. MTR receives a share of the profits that developers make from these properties; this share could be a percentage of total development profits, a fixed lump sum, or a portion of commercial properties built on the site. By capturing part of the value of the land and property around railway lines, MTR generates funds for new projects as well as for operations and maintenance. That is why it does not need government subsidies or loans."

Of course in Texas, more of the profit would come from the property side than the transit tickets, but it's an interesting structure to consider and I feel would be warmly received in business-minded Texas.... like a partial privatization. It would also encourage DART to build meaningful transit lines that drive ridership (increasing station property values and lease income) versus political appeasement white elephant lines (Silver line).

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dzh
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby dzh » 06 Jan 2023 20:48

Matt777 wrote:I don't know if this is allowed in the USA or for DART, but I wonder if we could switch to a model of letting DART be a transit operator/property developer and operator like the highly successful model Hong Kong uses for the MTR.

Article: https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/o ... erty-model

" The key is a business model called “Rail plus Property” (R+P). For new rail lines, the government provides MTR with land “development rights” at stations or depots along the route. To convert these development rights to land, MTR pays the government a land premium based on the land’s market value without the railway.

MTR then builds the new rail line and partners with private developers to build properties. The choice of private developer is made through a competitive tender process. MTR receives a share of the profits that developers make from these properties; this share could be a percentage of total development profits, a fixed lump sum, or a portion of commercial properties built on the site. By capturing part of the value of the land and property around railway lines, MTR generates funds for new projects as well as for operations and maintenance. That is why it does not need government subsidies or loans."

Of course in Texas, more of the profit would come from the property side than the transit tickets, but it's an interesting structure to consider and I feel would be warmly received in business-minded Texas.... like a partial privatization. It would also encourage DART to build meaningful transit lines that drive ridership (increasing station property values and lease income) versus political appeasement white elephant lines (Silver line).


I've always wondered why this structure of financing wasn't tried in the United States too. It seems like this model should be a no-brainer, I'm sure the bureaucracy isn't quite as simple however. Part of me does wonder if the ones in charge just don't have the imagination to consider something like this however.

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electricron
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby electricron » 07 Jan 2023 08:01

Matt777 wrote:I don't know if this is allowed in the USA or for DART, but I wonder if we could switch to a model of letting DART be a transit operator/property developer and operator like the highly successful model Hong Kong uses for the MTR.

Of course in Texas, more of the profit would come from the property side than the transit tickets, but it's an interesting structure to consider and I feel would be warmly received in business-minded Texas.... like a partial privatization. It would also encourage DART to build meaningful transit lines that drive ridership (increasing station property values and lease income) versus political appeasement white elephant lines (Silver line).


There are just too many governmental entities involved in the USA than there is in China - Hong Kong included.
Property taxes is not how DART earns income, but just about almost every other government entity does earn income.
DART earns local income via a 1% sales tax, and remote income from Federal grants from the FTA. The counties, cities, and other Federal agencies provide zero financial support. DART's income from fares is not as much as many would think.
DART's latest yearly financial statement
https://dartorgcmsblob.dart.org/prod/do ... report.pdf
Operating revenues
Passenger revenues $28,975,000
Advertising, rent and other 11,902,000
Total operating revenues 40,877,000

Non-operating revenues (expenses)
Sales and use tax revenue 683,171,000
Investment income 9,704,000
Build America Bonds tax credit 21,286,000
Other federal grants 197,655,000
Other non-operating revenues 37,275,000
Interest expense (143,005,000)
Street improvements (5,361,000)
Other non-operating expenses (418,000)
Total net non-operating revenues 800,307,000
Total Revenues 841,184,000

After performing some math,
Fares only generate 3.4% of DART's yearly revenues.
26% of income is granted from the Federal government
81% is generated by the 1% local sales taxes.
And yes, the percentages do not sum up to 100% because 184,784,000 non-operating expenses are also included with this data.
And a very important data point that should be recognized; the State of Texas provides zero yearly funds or grants to DART.

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tamtagon
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby tamtagon » 07 Jan 2023 09:09

electricron wrote:And a very important data point that should be recognized; the State of Texas provides zero yearly funds or grants to DART.


That's ridiculously insubordinate.

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OrangeMike
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby OrangeMike » 07 Jan 2023 21:18

electricron wrote:There are just too many governmental entities involved…


Thanks for sharing the detailed breakdown on the revenue sources. Lots of good info.

electricron wrote:The counties, cities, and other Federal agencies provide zero financial support.


One minor quibble: Not sure which cities you mean to include here, but the 13 DART member cities absolutely do provide financial support because they are the entities choosing to allocate that 1% of their sales tax revenue to the transit agency. They incur an additional cost for doing so because places like Frisco, Allen, McKinney, etc., spend that same 1% of their pot on economic development that often lures businesses away from DART member cities instead of on joining the regional bus and train network.