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Silver Line

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muncien
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Re: Silver Line

Postby muncien » 15 Jan 2020 09:00

A few thoughts about DART and parking...
1. I don't really get why DART is in the parking lot business.
2. If you have them, why not just charge EVERYBODY who parks there?
3. If you are a resident in the DART service area, you likely have a bus route nearby and have no real NEED to park at the parking lots anyway.
4. So, who cares if out of service area people park there, so long as they pay.
5. If you live in the service area and really don't like the bus, and you choose to pay to park, that should be okay too (not being an arse... I don't like the bus myself).
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

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art_suckz
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Re: Silver Line

Postby art_suckz » 15 Jan 2020 09:28

IMO the parking lots should be shopping centers with businesses paying leases to DART
To the man who only has a hammer, everything he encounters begins to look like a nail.

itsjrd1964
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Re: Silver Line

Postby itsjrd1964 » 15 Jan 2020 14:13

The_Overdog wrote:https://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/about/expansion/cottonbelt/DARTCottonBeltMeeting22jul19.pdf

This doc shows that the line will run to the right/east (I think) of the existing red line with the station at CityLine to the east of the existing station. If you check it does look like they will need to purchase or be really careful with their design to avoid taking a lot of property in Plano.


Thank you Overdog for helping answer my question. I figured the arrangement at Cityline/Bush would be pretty much like this.
Screenshot_20200115-134414_Drive.jpg


12th Street looks a little different than I would imagine. Looks like they won't have a combined Silver and Red/Orange station there. Hard to tell if one of my questions (regarding how the Silver will meet/split from the Red/Orange at 12th Street) will be answered. If the split has the Silver going under, there will need to be a bit of turning-radius vicinity there, and there is a commercial business just to the west of the Red/Orange line. If the Silver goes over, it would have to be quite high to get over the Red/Orange tracks and their associated electric lines. But from the way the lines are drawn at both stations, the Silver line looks to be separate and west of the Red/Orange line. A very tight fit, which will probably only be accomplished with the Silver having a small-footprint aerial viaduct, as almost all the land north of Plano Pkwy. is taken up with commercial, factories, and a small office park; the part south of Plano Pkwy. to Bush Turnpike has apartments to the west. There's not nearly as much room there as with the placement of the apartments west of Cityline/Bush station. Those likely knew about the possibility of the Silver line before building, while the ones to the probably did not.
Screenshot_20200115-134348_Drive.jpg
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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Silver Line

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 15 Jan 2020 16:06

art_suckz wrote:IMO the parking lots should be shopping centers with businesses paying leases to DART

All Dart lots should be mixed used stations. Imagine having a couple Mockingbird stations around town. That's just good for everyone including non-DART riders.

DPatel304
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Re: Silver Line

Postby DPatel304 » 15 Jan 2020 16:21

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
art_suckz wrote:IMO the parking lots should be shopping centers with businesses paying leases to DART

All Dart lots should be mixed used stations. Imagine having a couple Mockingbird stations around town. That's just good for everyone including non-DART riders.


I always assumed that was the eventual goal, once there was enough demand to do so. Is that not the case?

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quixomniac
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Re: Silver Line

Postby quixomniac » 15 Jan 2020 19:24

muncien wrote:A few thoughts about DART and parking...
1. I don't really get why DART is in the parking lot business.
2. If you have them, why not just charge EVERYBODY who parks there?
3. If you are a resident in the DART service area, you likely have a bus route nearby and have no real NEED to park at the parking lots anyway.
4. So, who cares if out of service area people park there, so long as they pay.
5. If you live in the service area and really don't like the bus, and you choose to pay to park, that should be okay too (not being an arse... I don't like the bus myself).


I remember a few years ago they tried a pilot paid parking program where they charged everyone.
But more so to out of service area residents.
This was to counter crowding in the plano stations, but I am not sure what happened since then.
Wether it was succesful or not.

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electricron
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Re: Silver Line

Postby electricron » 16 Jan 2020 01:29

itsjrd1964 wrote:Thank you Overdog for helping answer my question. I figured the arrangement at Cityline/Bush would be pretty much like this.Screenshot_20200115-134414_Drive.jpg

12th Street looks a little different than I would imagine. Looks like they won't have a combined Silver and Red/Orange station there. Hard to tell if one of my questions (regarding how the Silver will meet/split from the Red/Orange at 12th Street) will be answered. If the split has the Silver going under, there will need to be a bit of turning-radius vicinity there, and there is a commercial business just to the west of the Red/Orange line. If the Silver goes over, it would have to be quite high to get over the Red/Orange tracks and their associated electric lines. But from the way the lines are drawn at both stations, the Silver line looks to be separate and west of the Red/Orange line. A very tight fit, which will probably only be accomplished with the Silver having a small-footprint aerial viaduct, as almost all the land north of Plano Pkwy. is taken up with commercial, factories, and a small office park; the part south of Plano Pkwy. to Bush Turnpike has apartments to the west. There's not nearly as much room there as with the placement of the apartments west of Cityline/Bush station. Those likely knew about the possibility of the Silver line before building, while the ones to the probably did not.
Screenshot_20200115-134348_Drive.jpg

The Silver Line is going to parallel the Red Line on the west side; there is already a freight railroad spur between 10th and 12th avenues in Plano that already turn east under the Red Line with plenty of vertical clearance for a 20 feet tall freight car. There is going to be zero problems routing the Silver Line under the Red Line at this location - the way is already built.
The difficulty will be building the new 12th Avenue station side platforms on either side of the existing Red Line bridge over the ex Cotton Belt line. The Red Line existing bridge arches over the ex Cotton Belt line, and building arch platforms vs perfectly flat platforms adds to the difficulty.
As for how the interchange station at 12th Avenue will look, look 10 miles or so west at how the interchange at downtown Carrolton station will be. The Red Line station platforms will be ordinated north-south while the Silver Line station platforms will be ordinated east-west. Also look at how the Orange Line interchange with the Las Colinas people mover for similarities. A similar station configuration already exist, two new ones will be built soon.
The interchange at Bush Turnpike station will be more akin to Union Station or Trinity Mills, with the commuter rail platform(s) adjacent to the light rail platforms in the same north-south ordination. Again, not a completely new design for DART.

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quixomniac
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Re: Silver Line

Postby quixomniac » 22 Jan 2020 18:43

Someone else posted this link on the D2 page,
But there's some bits about the Silver line.
https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/dart- ... l/2296017/

At the same time DART is moving forward with the $1.2 billion Silver Line, formerly known as the Cotton Belt Line, for a transit rail connection between Plano and DFW Airport. The Silver Line faces strong opposition from North Dallas neighbors who want the portion of that project that would run behind their homes to be built in a tunnel instead of on the surface.

DART has resisted a Silver Line tunnel as it offers neighbor various other “betterments” like sound walls and low noise tracks.

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dzh
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Re: Silver Line

Postby dzh » 22 Jan 2020 22:18

I'm no train expert, but how would a tunnel with a diesel-powered train like work? Would they just create the most ventilated tunnel ever? In the off chance event that they end up getting forced to dig a tunnel, will they potentially need to go electric for this line?

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exelone31
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Re: Silver Line

Postby exelone31 » 23 Jan 2020 09:02

Let's all keep in mind that it is entirely possible that these complaints are coming from people who voluntarily chose (under no duress!) to live on a street called "Spanky Branch Ct".
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TNWE
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Re: Silver Line

Postby TNWE » 23 Jan 2020 10:23

exelone31 wrote:Let's all keep in mind that it is entirely possible that these complaints are coming from people who voluntarily chose (under no duress!) to live on a street called "Spanky Branch Ct".

Haha!

In all seriousness, the elevated structure is a necessity due to the access and drainage impacts of lowering Hillcrest and Coit (This presentation breaks down the alternatives: https://dart.org/about/board/boardagend ... 4jan20.pdf) A trench adds to the cost and creates a drainage nightmare any time there's heavy rains/flash flooding, and you simply don't build a tunnel when you already have continuous ROW for a transit line. These people can't in good faith claim they never thought there would be trains running near their house when they chose to buy a house that backs up to a train line.

It reminds me a lot of the NIMBY complaints from Colleyville during TexRail planning and construction, and some on this forum decided that was evidence enough to declare Colleyville a backwards city. From the TexRail thread:
Matt777 wrote:
tamtagon wrote:I still don't understand why Collyville rejected a station.


Because in their warped minds, they equate public transportation with poor people and criminals. They're the kind of people who rent a car when to go to Manhattan, and drive it so they can go see Times Square.


Seeing as the City of Dallas rejected the Coit Road station, and Dallas residents are complaining about "noisy" trains in their backyard, I guess it's time to get that ol broad brush back out...Sorry Dallasites, you're just as backward as Colleyville ;)

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Cbdallas
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Re: Silver Line

Postby Cbdallas » 23 Jan 2020 11:18

Meanwhile the residents of urban Dallas are begging for more stations and transit options and these people don't even want the train up in their suburban neighborhoods. I still don't believe in this line and would rather have diverted this money to D2 and opening up more urban stations.

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TNWE
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Re: Silver Line

Postby TNWE » 23 Jan 2020 12:01

Cbdallas wrote:Meanwhile the residents of urban Dallas are begging for more stations and transit options and these people don't even want the train up in their suburban neighborhoods. I still don't believe in this line and would rather have diverted this money to D2 and opening up more urban stations.


But that's just the problem with the "Dallas vs. The Suburbs," anti-regionalism logic that pervades every discussion on the forum - the City of Dallas is mostly suburban. All of the residents of urban Dallas think they can get subways and streetcars by blocking transit development in "the suburbs," but the majority of Dallasites (who live in car-dependent SFR that's not particularly close to the urban core, or in Uptown MFR and refuse to use transit) feel that D2 is as much a waste of money as the Silver Line, and would certainly gripe if the City hiked property taxes to build streetcar lines downtown while continuing to neglect roads and traffic lights.

And let's not forget the Engineering by Mob that happened with D2 - a whole lot of urban Dallasites had no problem putting on their NIMBY hats and demanding expensive changes to the routing because...they didn't want "noisy" trains passing by their houses! And rather than fronting the cash for these expensive changes, Dallas made finding additional funding for the D2 subway DART's problem. Compare that to Plano, Richardson, Addison, and Irving who have all paid in significant cash towards adjusting rail alignments and plans for the benefit of their city. Maybe that's why the Silver Line is under construction and D2 is still mired in planning purgatory?

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Silver Line

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 23 Jan 2020 12:34

Cbdallas wrote:Meanwhile the residents of urban Dallas are begging for more stations and transit options and these people don't even want the train up in their suburban neighborhoods. I still don't believe in this line and would rather have diverted this money to D2 and opening up more urban stations.


Some people feel that way, but don't think for a second it's universal. Most of the residents I know think DART rail has been a negative for Deep Ellum. Few people would shed a tear if the Green Line were to disappear tomorrow.

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Cbdallas
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Re: Silver Line

Postby Cbdallas » 23 Jan 2020 15:18

Why would the Green line be a negative for Deep Ellum this seems so contrary to other urban cities where they would want transit. Not sure I understand. Even Los Angeles of all places is adding more rail and stations why would Dallas not want more instead of less transit.

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quixomniac
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Re: Silver Line

Postby quixomniac » 23 Jan 2020 19:13

Cbdallas wrote:Why would the Green line be a negative for Deep Ellum this seems so contrary to other urban cities where they would want transit. Not sure I understand. Even Los Angeles of all places is adding more rail and stations why would Dallas not want more instead of less transit.


Its not so much the station itself, it is the poor implentation of Deep Ellum station in my opinion. That whole section should have been trenched at the very least, it clogs up traffic in the worst places, north end of deep ellum and the on ramp to 75. In fact, now that they are doing D2, they should put the money in to fix it isntead of making it worse with additional crossings.

All of those people rejecting stations will find themselves in the same places as Knox/Henderson.
They will have to fund their stations themselves.
Knocking them off the list makes everything cheaper and the trains faster with less stops.

And Id also like to add that far north Dallas is basically a suburb and we shouldn't stick to this labeling of entire cities as urban and suburuban and approach everything in terms of density.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Silver Line

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 23 Jan 2020 19:18

Cons:

- The tracks cross three of the major routes in/out of the neighborhood. The trains block the street a surprising percentage of the time.

- The train drivers love to push the button to lower the crossing gates long before they leave the station. This is especially dangerous when they block the fire trucks and ambulances on Malcolm X and on Hall.

- When the crossing gates malfunction they create a major mess.

- To build the rail line they replaced two grade-separated street crossings with at-grade intersections, closed off several other intersections, and added other new traffic lights.

- Increased crime. This is no urban myth or misperception. Just ask Christopher Washington. Oh, I'm sorry -- you can't. Because he was killed last month at the Deep Ellum station. How many times have we read articles about rapes, robberies and assaults that ended "the suspects were last seen headed towards the Deep Ellum Dart station"? It's gotten to the point even I don't like walking past the Baylor station at night.

- The business owners I know say that they don't see any paying customers using it to come to the neighborhood except for a few families during the day on weekends. And they don't tend to spend much money.

Pros:
- Well, I do know exactly one person who commutes on the train to Richardson.


BTW, you should have seen the turnout at the meetings to oppose running D2 up Good-Latimer at street level. Folks were prepping their torches and pitchforks.

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TNWE
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Re: Silver Line

Postby TNWE » 24 Jan 2020 12:00

quixomniac wrote:And Id also like to add that far north Dallas is basically a suburb and we shouldn't stick to this labeling of entire cities as urban and suburuban and approach everything in terms of density.


I agree, but it's not the only suburb. Lakewood, Lake Highlands, Preston Hollow, Kessler, and North Dallas are all effectively suburbs, but they're all contained inside the same arbitrary boundary as Uptown/Downtown/Deep Ellum. Like it or not, that makes Dallas just as much a "suburban" city as Plano or Irving, and the makeup of the city council reflects that - only districts 2 and 14 could be considered "urban" in terms of density.

So much of the pie in the sky urbanist vision for Dallas is rooted in the idea that all those de facto suburbs should keep paying property and sales taxes into the city coffers, but not get anything in return as the vast majority of spending is directed toward projects that benefit residents in district 2 or 14. The "Dallas vs. The Suburbs" rhetoric is just a façade for the urbanist crowd to cast aspersions about the supposed moral inferiority of "suburbanites" without upsetting their North Dallas piggybank.

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Parker Road
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Re: Silver Line

Postby Parker Road » 26 Jan 2020 15:15

Cons:

- The tracks cross three of the major routes in/out of the neighborhood. The trains block the street a surprising percentage of the time.

- The train drivers love to push the button to lower the crossing gates long before they leave the station. This is especially dangerous when they block the fire trucks and ambulances on Malcolm X and on Hall.

- When the crossing gates malfunction they create a major mess.

- To build the rail line they replaced two grade-separated street crossings with at-grade intersections, closed off several other intersections, and added other new traffic lights.


Lol. Two-thirds of your "cons" are from the driver's perspective... figures.
Also, don't cite somebody's death as a reason not to build transit when driving is much more dangerous. The Deep Ellum station is poorly located in a sense that it's far from the actual Deep Ellum neighborhood, but the reason nobody uses it is because it's choking in a sea of car infrastructure. If land use around the station became more habitable to transit users, then it would see more success.

And let's not forget the Engineering by Mob that happened with D2 - a whole lot of urban Dallasites had no problem putting on their NIMBY hats and demanding expensive changes to the routing because...they didn't want "noisy" trains passing by their houses! And rather than fronting the cash for these expensive changes, Dallas made finding additional funding for the D2 subway DART's problem. Compare that to Plano, Richardson, Addison, and Irving who have all paid in significant cash towards adjusting rail alignments and plans for the benefit of their city. Maybe that's why the Silver Line is under construction and D2 is still mired in planning purgatory?


Maybe the Silver Line is under construction because it follows a (mostly) existing ROW through low-density areas while D2 is going to be built on an all-new alignment through the most highly built-up part of the Metroplex?

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TNWE
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Re: Silver Line

Postby TNWE » 27 Jan 2020 12:40

Parker Road wrote:
And let's not forget the Engineering by Mob that happened with D2 - a whole lot of urban Dallasites had no problem putting on their NIMBY hats and demanding expensive changes to the routing because...they didn't want "noisy" trains passing by their houses! And rather than fronting the cash for these expensive changes, Dallas made finding additional funding for the D2 subway DART's problem. Compare that to Plano, Richardson, Addison, and Irving who have all paid in significant cash towards adjusting rail alignments and plans for the benefit of their city. Maybe that's why the Silver Line is under construction and D2 is still mired in planning purgatory?


Maybe the Silver Line is under construction because it follows a (mostly) existing ROW through low-density areas while D2 is going to be built on an all-new alignment through the most highly built-up part of the Metroplex?


The availability of existing ROW certainly didn't hurt, but back in 2015 when the D2 conversation started in earnest, it was the priority, with the Cotton Belt pushed off into the 2030s. When DART gave in to the demands of amateur engineers and had to go back to the drawing board, it effectively put D2 back at square one. The at-grade alternative was slated for a mid-2017 Final EIS/Record of Decision. The Silver Line FEIS/ROD was November 2018, and was all set to go when the RRIF loan opportunity arose. The D2 Subway *might* complete sDEIS by 2021 if the downtown NIMBYs don't find something else to complain about (if someone really wanted to derail D2 again, they'd rally Victory Park/West End residents to raise all the same complaints Deep Ellum and Farmers Market residents did and get another 5 year delay while DART figures out how to dig a subway through VP).

If people think the D2 subway is the best alternative, that's fine. But they don't get to unilaterally put the brakes on everything else while they go back to the drawing board...

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TNWE
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Re: Silver Line

Postby TNWE » 09 Mar 2020 15:53

The latest Silver Line briefing has some interesting nuggets on the design of the Downtown Carrolton station and how it will interchange with both the existing Green Line, as well as potential A-Train and "Frisco Line" commuter rail extensions...

https://dart.org/about/board/boardagend ... 0mar20.pdf (starting on page 5)

The most frustrating thing is the addition of a 550(!) foot ramp to connect the Silver Line Platform to the Green Line platform. I can't imagine anyone traversing that when the plan already had stairs, elevators, and in one alternative, escalators in a climate-controlled structure!

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electricron
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Re: Silver Line

Postby electricron » 10 Mar 2020 09:07

TNWE wrote:The latest Silver Line briefing has some interesting nuggets on the design of the Downtown Carrolton station and how it will interchange with both the existing Green Line, as well as potential A-Train and "Frisco Line" commuter rail extensions...

https://dart.org/about/board/boardagend ... 0mar20.pdf (starting on page 5)

The most frustrating thing is the addition of a 550(!) foot ramp to connect the Silver Line Platform to the Green Line platform. I can't imagine anyone traversing that when the plan already had stairs, elevators, and in one alternative, escalators in a climate-controlled structure!


There has to be a backup way for wheelchair or otherwise mobility challenged people to get from one level platform to another in case the elevator(s) breaks down. The idea that they will never be out of service, if only for routine maintenance, is wrong. That more than 500 foot ramp is needed for the almost 40 feet in elevation changes between levels keeping it to an acceptable grade.

Check out Mockingbird Station and note how many passengers will wait for the elevator, use the escalators, or use the stairway. You might be surprised at how many avoid the electro-mechanical solutions, getting some exercise in using the human enable solutions.

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TNWE
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Re: Silver Line

Postby TNWE » 10 Mar 2020 09:30

electricron wrote:
TNWE wrote:The latest Silver Line briefing has some interesting nuggets on the design of the Downtown Carrolton station and how it will interchange with both the existing Green Line, as well as potential A-Train and "Frisco Line" commuter rail extensions...

https://dart.org/about/board/boardagend ... 0mar20.pdf (starting on page 5)

The most frustrating thing is the addition of a 550(!) foot ramp to connect the Silver Line Platform to the Green Line platform. I can't imagine anyone traversing that when the plan already had stairs, elevators, and in one alternative, escalators in a climate-controlled structure!


There has to be a backup way for wheelchair or otherwise mobility challenged people to get from one level platform to another in case the elevator(s) breaks down. The idea that they will never be out of service, if only for routine maintenance, is wrong. That more than 500 foot ramp is needed for the almost 40 feet in elevation changes between levels keeping it to an acceptable grade.

Check out Mockingbird Station and note how many passengers will wait for the elevator, use the escalators, or use the stairway. You might be surprised at how many avoid the electro-mechanical solutions, getting some exercise in using the human enable solutions.


There's no ramp for the existing elevated Green Line platform though - the required ADA redundancy is provided by having two elevators (three if you count the one at the south end of the ped walkway over Belt Line). What is special about the Silver line that it needs a ramp connection in addition to stairs, elevators, and (potentially) escalators?

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electricron
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Re: Silver Line

Postby electricron » 11 Mar 2020 00:02

TNWE wrote:There's no ramp for the existing elevated Green Line platform though - the required ADA redundancy is provided by having two elevators (three if you count the one at the south end of the ped walkway over Belt Line). What is special about the Silver line that it needs a ramp connection in addition to stairs, elevators, and (potentially) escalators?

The Silver Line platform is only getting one elevator, there is no second elevator in the plans for it. The backup reason I responded earlier still applies to it.
The Silver Line platform will also be placed in the midst of two freight railroad corridors, BNSF to the south and DGNO to the north. An at grade access to the platform over track with mile long freight trains may not be considered safe, so it'll be an up and over catwalk in place for it, a catwalk slopping down, or an elevator from the light rail station platform.

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THRILLHO
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Re: Silver Line

Postby THRILLHO » 11 Mar 2020 12:53

I'm so curious to see how this turns out for the Carrollton station. This corner of the metroplex already feels delightfully chaotic with the the green line, 35E, and the freight lines--with an over+underpass sandwiched between it all. Throwing another rail line into the mix should be fun.

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TNWE
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Re: Silver Line

Postby TNWE » 11 Mar 2020 16:19

electricron wrote:
TNWE wrote:There's no ramp for the existing elevated Green Line platform though - the required ADA redundancy is provided by having two elevators (three if you count the one at the south end of the ped walkway over Belt Line). What is special about the Silver line that it needs a ramp connection in addition to stairs, elevators, and (potentially) escalators?

The Silver Line platform is only getting one elevator, there is no second elevator in the plans for it. The backup reason I responded earlier still applies to it.
The Silver Line platform will also be placed in the midst of two freight railroad corridors, BNSF to the south and DGNO to the north. An at grade access to the platform over track with mile long freight trains may not be considered safe, so it'll be an up and over catwalk in place for it, a catwalk slopping down, or an elevator from the light rail station platform.


I took a closer look at the plans, and if DART truly intends to "wall off" Silver Line access from the south and make the only pedestrian ingress/egress via the new parking lot or elevated Green Line platform, that's even worse. All of the existing bus bays are to the south, so any Silver Line <-> Bus connections also require going up and over.

If they're going to build a ramp, it should be located in a way that serves as many use cases as possible (i.e. facilitating bus connections or pedestrian access to Belt Line Road), and not just tacked on to the side as an afterthought that adds *another* avoidable pedestrian crossing of the LRT tracks


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