northsouth wrote:Presumably via the BNSF line from Irving to Carrollton. Would be quite out of the way though, not to mention having to deal with freight trains. I wonder why Carrollton is so opposed to the site that was proposed as the Cotton Belt yard facility.
Recent speech by Tim McKay at SW Rail Conference
Ridership at these stations is driven primarily by auto and transit access, so it’s to be expected that stations with neither would have poor ridership.
The_Overdog wrote:Maybe but it's not correlated to that either. Otherwise, downtown Carrollton (#1 in ridership) would be #8. I guess they are basically counting cannibalization of the existing line to be added to Carrollton's numbers. Knoll Trail has almost as many jobs & residents as Addison, but it's got 1/3 the transit use. That makes no sense.
The_Overdog wrote:Also this line has constantly been sold as allowing the residents of Plano to get to the airport, but then they don't actually expect anyone to ride it for that purpose, and one of the busiest Plano-adjacent sites (Coit) is considering being scrapped until later.
I just wish they would be more honest as to why they are building this line.
There's no pick-up/drop-off zone, no parking lot, it's out of walking distance for most, and the bus connections are limited to the point of uselessness.
electricron wrote:
FIFY: If we pretend they won't build the weakest 1/4th of the stations, you'll be hard pressed to find one with significantly less ridership than the less busy light rail stations.
The_Overdog wrote:
It's half a mile radius. If people aren't willing to walk that far, then a transit system is never going to work and the money shouldn't be spent. 20 years is plenty of time to rework the street grid in that area to make it conducive to walking that far.
And if you want to call '2000 rides a day' 20 years from now the big winner, then ok. I'd call Richardson the big winner though. They get rail transit connectivity N/S and E/W in their city out of this.
electricron wrote:(4) 12th Street
Too close to Cityline/Bush Station. It's not needed for a Red Line transfer.
It's too far away from downtown Plano to attract much ridership.
Tucy wrote:electricron wrote:
FIFY: If we pretend they won't build the weakest 1/4th of the stations, you'll be hard pressed to find one with significantly less ridership than the less busy light rail stations.
With stats like that, how could anyone be against it?
FWIW, the EIS specifically says the DFW Pass-Through platform is a future plan. There is no such indication regarding any of the stations.
I'd be curious to know what stations were not built on the other DART lines that were included in the applicable EIS, and that were not discussed in such EIS as future or potential stations.
muncien wrote:Tucy wrote:electricron wrote:
FIFY: If we pretend they won't build the weakest 1/4th of the stations, you'll be hard pressed to find one with significantly less ridership than the less busy light rail stations.
With stats like that, how could anyone be against it?
FWIW, the EIS specifically says the DFW Pass-Through platform is a future plan. There is no such indication regarding any of the stations.
I'd be curious to know what stations were not built on the other DART lines that were included in the applicable EIS, and that were not discussed in such EIS as future or potential stations.
I know the Carpenter Ranch station on the Orange Line was supposed to be built with the original construction, but was later deferred. I want to say it was because DART proposed a one year delay due to construction issues and Irving didn't want to play along. The deal they worked involved a phased opening and Carpenter Ranch being deferred.
Preston Road is clearly the most useless, is surrounded by a bunch of suburban single-fam, and has community opposition. I'm guessing it's just in there because Plano wants two stations?
As for Richardson, residents near the Plano border get a 50+ min ride to the airport and rail access to Downtown Addison (which is even better for Addison).
The_Overdog wrote:Who cares about airport access? Residents of Plano & Richardson can hop on the GBush and have a 25 minute drive to DFW, 45 at rush hour. I'm sure it won't be more than 60 by 2040; most likely the exact same. Richardson residents get DART, not bus access, E/W and N/S which means they will at most take a 10 minute bus ride to a light rail station with better frequency and accesses all the job centers in the entire city. Richardson has more jobs and more job centers, and is more dense by population than Addison.
Tucy wrote:I'd be curious to know what stations were not built on the other DART lines that were included in the applicable EIS, and that were not discussed in such EIS as future or potential stations.
northsouth wrote:Tucy wrote:I'd be curious to know what stations were not built on the other DART lines that were included in the applicable EIS, and that were not discussed in such EIS as future or potential stations.
To my knowledge, there are 6:
-Carpenter Ranch: deferred at the last minute, now planned for construction for the Hidden Ridge development. Renderings were made for it like the other Orange line stations, and the steel archways of the canopy have been sitting in a lot next to the Green/Orange line split at Bachman station for years.
-South Las Colinas: will be built if/when the commuter line from Irving to Frisco is built in order to serve as a transfer station.
-Loop 12: will be built when redevelopment of the old Texas Stadium site happens.
-Lake Highlands: has since been built.
-Knox/Henderson: canceled due to community disapproval in the early 1990s, will probably never be built at this point due to the logistics involved.
-Plano Road: this one isn't well documented, but there is an otherwise inexplicable widening between the tracks of the Blue Line at Plano road, perfectly spaced to fit an island platform, and long enough to fit a platform (including space for the extension intended to fit 4 original cars/3 expanded cars). It's too close to LBJ/Skillman, and is surrounded by nothing but industrial development. No surprise it was never built. The only reference I've ever seen to is the map on this old webpage, where the asterisk by its name presumably means it was being deferred.
muncien wrote:I have a feeling that it's easier to drop stations after the initial Environmental Impact Report, than to not have them on there, and try to include them afterward. That is probably why we always see more initially, and they get deferred later. But most of these stations are marked as 'deferred' in the EIR itself. It's not very common to see them not marked as deferred, but dropped later. Carpenter Ranch is the only one I know of. But I suspect maybe one or two of the above mentioned stations may fall into that category as well.
electricron wrote:muncien wrote:I have a feeling that it's easier to drop stations after the initial Environmental Impact Report, than to not have them on there, and try to include them afterward. That is probably why we always see more initially, and they get deferred later. But most of these stations are marked as 'deferred' in the EIR itself. It's not very common to see them not marked as deferred, but dropped later. Carpenter Ranch is the only one I know of. But I suspect maybe one or two of the above mentioned stations may fall into that category as well.
Whether they were marked as deferred or not, the fact remains those stations were not built. Let's not confuse DEIS with FEIS documents and maps. Almost all transit EIS processes involves finding the preferred ones from multiple alternate ones. The Cotton Belt EIS isn't Final yet, so there's time left in the process to mark any deferred stations.
UTD and neighbor (former) TxA&M site
electricron wrote:Whether ridership is high or low, it gives far more people more options than they have now.
From central Dallas, you can ride the trains in many directions:
SW, S, SE, NE, N, NNW, and WNW. Outside of let's say Loop 12 to keep it simple, you can only rdie the trains in one direction - toward central Dallas. If you wish to ride in a different direction, you must first ride the train to central Dallas, and most likely transfer trains. This isn't attractive to many, which might explain why ridership is so low once outside of Loop 12..
It's not so much the lack of density near the stations as much as the lack of convenience on places to travel directly to.
The Cotton Belt double the directions riders can travel from these northern train stations, adding both an east and west travel direction without riding all the way to central Dallas. Which should make DART two times more convenient to these riders....
.
I live in Cypress Waters now, and I just pulled up the trip planner for DART. The shortest option takes 2 hours and 9 minutes to get to downtown Plano station.
electricron wrote:Whether ridership is high or low, it gives far more people more options than they have now.
Cbdallas wrote:Start this with a dedicated bus system and see where the ridership is in 2040. If it is there then build the fixed line with more stations. Otherwise this is a waste of money and focus for the region.
muncien wrote:Nearly every major city has a decent commuter rail network. DFW does not, and it really should. Building the Cotton Belt on it's own wouldn't accomplish much. But, if done as a greater, regional commuter network, reaching up to Frisco, Denton, down through TRE corridor, plus downtown fortworth and grapevine, and you start to get something useful. Unfortunately, all of these corridors are currently operating independently, or not implemented yet.
Perhaps this is more something for NCTCOG to take on... But saying it is 'useless' is not accurate.
tanzoak wrote:muncien wrote:Nearly every major city has a decent commuter rail network. DFW does not, and it really should. Building the Cotton Belt on it's own wouldn't accomplish much. But, if done as a greater, regional commuter network, reaching up to Frisco, Denton, down through TRE corridor, plus downtown fortworth and grapevine, and you start to get something useful. Unfortunately, all of these corridors are currently operating independently, or not implemented yet.
Perhaps this is more something for NCTCOG to take on... But saying it is 'useless' is not accurate.
..there is a line to Denton (DCTA A Train), the TRE exists (which serves downtown Ft Worth), and TexRail is about to open (Grapevine and Ft Worth). So, all we're missing from this network is Frisco.
I'm unclear what bringing everyone under one operator would do. So long as DART and TexRail can cooperate to provide timed transfers, there's not much difference.
muncien wrote:This is exactly what I am referring to. We have these bits and pieces, but unlike most metros, none of them are connected. You should be able to take a train from Downtown Fort Worth up to Frisco... or Denton to City Line, or Downtown Dallas to Legacy West. And with a consolidated regional commuter network, you can create all these routes using the pieces you mentioned, plus the two proposed lines (cotton belt and BNSF) without requiring multiple transfers to the much slower LRT. I am not one for long commutes, but I cannot believe how many of my coworkers are willing to drive 30+ miles each way to work. When you factor in that they are taking toll roads, rising gas prices, and increasing congestion, commuter rail becomes a much more attractive option.
PonyUp13 wrote:Tangential question, but, are there plans to extend DCTA into a single train into downtown Dallas? Or, will a transfer to LRT always be required?
electricron wrote:It's important to acknowledge that DCTA, DART, and FWTA are three different transit agencies collecting taxes from entirely different cities, and that each has tax paying citizens who wish to see transit services provided to them locally. They do not wish to see taexs from Denton County spent in Dallas County, and the same is true vice versa. Dallas is just as far away as Houston as far as citizens of Denton County is concerned.
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