Silver Line

DPatel304
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Re: Silver Line

Postby DPatel304 » 19 Sep 2019 16:04

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Dart is more of bullet point than actually useful. We've got the longest train system in America..that's all I hear.

We can only hope the region densifies to the point where it becomes useful.


Well said, and it's summarizes my feelings on this Silver Line. It's just another bullet point so people in the suburbs can say they can easily get to the airport conveniently using DART. How many of these same people will actually end up using it? Who knows.

I'm hoping once this Silver Line is all said and done, DART can focus on expanding the system in better ways like they are with the D2.

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muncien
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Re: Silver Line

Postby muncien » 20 Sep 2019 08:52

Matt777 wrote:
DPatel304 wrote:
DART breaks ground on Silver Line along the old Cotton Belt corridor
The plan is to have the Silver Line operating in three years.

https://www.fox4news.com/news/dart-brea ... t-corridor

I had no idea we were so close to ground breaking on this project. Truthfully I had kinda shut out most information regarding this as I'm not fully in support of it, and I figured it was still going to be a ways off.


Yikes. They want to get this boondoggle operational quickly. Can't wait for the 20/20 feature story on "The Train to Nowhere."


DFW Airport (transfer station) - Cypress Waters - Downtown Carrollton (transfer station) - Addison Circle - UT Dallas - Cityline (transfer station), and East Plano are hardly 'nowhere'. These are significant business, residential, educational, and transfer stops.

The DART service area population tilts heavily to the north and putting a badly needed East/West line in the North area makes perfect sense. The LBJ corridor wouldn't be a bad option either, but frankly, it would serve fewer people and be much more costly to build.
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The_Overdog
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Re: Silver Line

Postby The_Overdog » 20 Sep 2019 10:11

UT Dallas - Cityline (transfer station), and East Plano are hardly 'nowhere'.


These stations were literally nowhere until really recently, as in just empty fields. Except for east Plano but that is still not a residential stop, it's low rise industrial built around truck traffic. There are apartments planned around it, but I think the rail line will complete first.

And really all were already well served by rail lines. 635 may have been more expensive, but it would have been a much better location for an east/west line.

On the other hand, since they were blank, most of them are being developed around walkabilty and connectivity, unlike if they had been built out 10-40 years ago.

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TNWE
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Re: Silver Line

Postby TNWE » 20 Sep 2019 11:27

Matt777 wrote:Yikes. They want to get this boondoggle operational quickly. Can't wait for the 20/20 feature story on "The Train to Nowhere."


Why don't you go tell the UTD student/staff population that you don't think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of "nowhere?". Never mind that DART has TWICE had to buy more buses and expand the scope of Route 883 (the UTD shuttle to Cityline) because of exploding ridership. UTD has a base of ridership that will use the transit services that exists TODAY, unlike certain posters here who live in the most transit-dense part of Dallas, but continually make excuses for why they don't actually use DART services, and think they're entitled to their own "bullet point" - a subway line that serves *no new riders*, but assuages the insecurity they feel when comparing Dallas to NYC or Chicago, I guess...

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f4shionablecha0s
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Re: Silver Line

Postby f4shionablecha0s » 24 Sep 2019 18:30

TNWE wrote:
Matt777 wrote:Yikes. They want to get this boondoggle operational quickly. Can't wait for the 20/20 feature story on "The Train to Nowhere."


Why don't you go tell the UTD student/staff population that you don't think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of "nowhere?". Never mind that DART has TWICE had to buy more buses and expand the scope of Route 883 (the UTD shuttle to Cityline) because of exploding ridership. UTD has a base of ridership that will use the transit services that exists TODAY, unlike certain posters here who live in the most transit-dense part of Dallas, but continually make excuses for why they don't actually use DART services, and think they're entitled to their own "bullet point" - a subway line that serves *no new riders*, but assuages the insecurity they feel when comparing Dallas to NYC or Chicago, I guess...

I don’t think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of nowhere. We can’t find the money to connect the Dallas Streetcar to the MATA but we’re wasting money serving cornfields in Plano? Absolutely ridiculous. If those UTD students wanted (semi)convenient rail access maybe they should have gone to SMU. This whole idea of people living anywhere and expecting transit to some to their doorstep is ridiculous. DART has atrocious ridership per mole and this “silver line” will make it even worse, no amount of bloviating from the dozens of people that might actually take the thing is going to change that.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby DPatel304 » 24 Sep 2019 19:00

TNWE wrote:Why don't you go tell the UTD student/staff population that you don't think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of "nowhere?". Never mind that DART has TWICE had to buy more buses and expand the scope of Route 883 (the UTD shuttle to Cityline) because of exploding ridership. UTD has a base of ridership that will use the transit services that exists TODAY, unlike certain posters here who live in the most transit-dense part of Dallas, but continually make excuses for why they don't actually use DART services, and think they're entitled to their own "bullet point" - a subway line that serves *no new riders*, but assuages the insecurity they feel when comparing Dallas to NYC or Chicago, I guess...


So, after the Silver Line is built, what, do you feel, is the next step for DART? This is why I struggle with the Silver Line because it just seems like a short sighted expansion. I get that people live in the suburbs and they all want rail, I'm just not sure how to feasibly provide it to them. Personally, I'd rather see way more investment into public transit in the urban core. Make it much easier to live a car-free lifestyle, and maybe ridership numbers will really start to pick up then when you have more people who solely rely on DART to get around. Use that additional revenue to slowly expand outward from Downtown, to the greater Downtown area, and so forth.

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quixomniac
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Re: Silver Line

Postby quixomniac » 24 Sep 2019 19:28

f4shionablecha0s wrote:
TNWE wrote:
Matt777 wrote:Yikes. They want to get this boondoggle operational quickly. Can't wait for the 20/20 feature story on "The Train to Nowhere."


Why don't you go tell the UTD student/staff population that you don't think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of "nowhere?". Never mind that DART has TWICE had to buy more buses and expand the scope of Route 883 (the UTD shuttle to Cityline) because of exploding ridership. UTD has a base of ridership that will use the transit services that exists TODAY, unlike certain posters here who live in the most transit-dense part of Dallas, but continually make excuses for why they don't actually use DART services, and think they're entitled to their own "bullet point" - a subway line that serves *no new riders*, but assuages the insecurity they feel when comparing Dallas to NYC or Chicago, I guess...

I don’t think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of nowhere. We can’t find the money to connect the Dallas Streetcar to the MATA but we’re wasting money serving cornfields in Plano? Absolutely ridiculous. If those UTD students wanted (semi)convenient rail access maybe they should have gone to SMU. This whole idea of people living anywhere and expecting transit to some to their doorstep is ridiculous. DART has atrocious ridership per mole and this “silver line” will make it even worse, no amount of bloviating from the dozens of people that might actually take the thing is going to change that.


SMU?! what a ridiculously uninformed comment. UTD is a public university, SMU is a private university, both serving completely different segments of the population, one just can't go to the other. SMU got lucky there is a train station nearby. SMU was never built out with a train station in mind. UNT Dallas was lucky they were nearby an expansion. Increased public transportation to universities will greatly help not only poor students, but international students who don't have money for cars. Rent prices have skyrocketed on apartments anywhere near the bus routes. You can criticize the Silver line without throwing people under the bus . pun definitely intended.

Secondly. Addison has been waiting on a train for years. If it didnt get one, Addison might have just left DART. And slowly but surely DART would fall apart if members started leaving instead of joining. Then Dart wouldnt have money to build D2 at all. The whole situation is like being stuck between a rock and a hard place.

And thirdly, go to George Bush Turnpike Station. Yes it was a field 10 years ago. Today it is home to State Farm, Raytheon among other things. Poorly designed i would add, but still the envy of many other wannabe TOD dart stations.

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Matt777
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Re: Silver Line

Postby Matt777 » 24 Sep 2019 21:32

TNWE wrote:
Matt777 wrote:Yikes. They want to get this boondoggle operational quickly. Can't wait for the 20/20 feature story on "The Train to Nowhere."


Why don't you go tell the UTD student/staff population that you don't think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of "nowhere?". Never mind that DART has TWICE had to buy more buses and expand the scope of Route 883 (the UTD shuttle to Cityline) because of exploding ridership. UTD has a base of ridership that will use the transit services that exists TODAY, unlike certain posters here who live in the most transit-dense part of Dallas, but continually make excuses for why they don't actually use DART services, and think they're entitled to their own "bullet point" - a subway line that serves *no new riders*, but assuages the insecurity they feel when comparing Dallas to NYC or Chicago, I guess...


I never said that UTD was in the middle of nowhere, so again, as usual, please stop putting words in my mouth. That reference is to the "Bridge to Nowhere" boondoggle in Alaska, and has been used ever since to discuss wildly expensive public projects that return little in results.

UTD is not in the middle of nowhere. However, it is in the middle of a very low density area called the North Dallas suburbs. That area of the region is not pedestrian friendly and is populated largely by people who would not even think about using public transportation. I attended and graduated from UTD, and I understand the bus line that takes students to nearby rail stations. I used it. The current setup of continuous bus service back and forth is probably better than the silver line train service which will be wayyyyyyyyy less frequent. If the bus service is full, add more buses easily! Additionally, the Silver Line Station will be ALMOST A MILE from the center of Campus, which will result in a long walk, or a bus to a train, to get to another train..... SMH.

The UTD station is probably the only station on this line that will generate decent passenger traffic and even the rosy estimates by DART (always overstated) were just a small increase in riders.

Not worth $1 billion.

That $1 billion could have been used to build TWENTY MILES of inner city streetcar lines connecting all of the urban areas of Central Dallas to DART stations, creating a transportation network that would be actually useful instead of what we have now which is largely useless to the majority of area residents, especially those in the inner city neighborhoods. That's inexcusable.

I am a huge proponent of public transportation, as my posts in this forum over the years can attest to. That's why I'm AGAINST the Silver Line which WILL be heralded as one of the most expensive pieces of useless crap ever built in Texas. It will be a highly publicized failure, and because of it we will probably have to kiss the hopes of any future smart rail expansion goodbye.

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muncien
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Re: Silver Line

Postby muncien » 25 Sep 2019 09:09

DPatel304 wrote:
TNWE wrote:Why don't you go tell the UTD student/staff population that you don't think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of "nowhere?". Never mind that DART has TWICE had to buy more buses and expand the scope of Route 883 (the UTD shuttle to Cityline) because of exploding ridership. UTD has a base of ridership that will use the transit services that exists TODAY, unlike certain posters here who live in the most transit-dense part of Dallas, but continually make excuses for why they don't actually use DART services, and think they're entitled to their own "bullet point" - a subway line that serves *no new riders*, but assuages the insecurity they feel when comparing Dallas to NYC or Chicago, I guess...


So, after the Silver Line is built, what, do you feel, is the next step for DART? This is why I struggle with the Silver Line because it just seems like a short sighted expansion. I get that people live in the suburbs and they all want rail, I'm just not sure how to feasibly provide it to them. Personally, I'd rather see way more investment into public transit in the urban core. Make it much easier to live a car-free lifestyle, and maybe ridership numbers will really start to pick up then when you have more people who solely rely on DART to get around. Use that additional revenue to slowly expand outward from Downtown, to the greater Downtown area, and so forth.


I understand the desire to make Dallas core the transit dense neighborhood that it should be... But DART's service are is not strictly the urban core. I have pointed this out numerous times... DART's service area and funding is massively spread out and it's job is to provide transit to that entire service area... not just the core. Perhaps Dallas needs its own urban transit agency to supplement DART, but I don't see the funding mechanism for that.

As for the future of the DART service area... I truly think commuter rail lines are better at serving the service area. LRT is good, but the exceedingly long times to navigate the service area via bus and LRT are grossly inefficient.
What I do see happening sooner rather than later is the bus system being disolved almost entirely. Partnerships between DART and rideshare/autonomous services will eventually reach a point that it is cheaper to supplement than maintaning a large, inefficient, unreliable bus fleet. But those rideshare/autonomous services will not take you from A-Z on public funds... Instead, they will take you to the nearest rail station > which takes you to the station closest to your end point > where another rideshare/autonomous vehicle is ready and waiting for you (if necessary) instead of waiting on the next scheduled bus 30 mins later, that has only three people on it.
Establishing such a coheasive rail network across the populated centers of the service area is necessary to make such a system work.
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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Silver Line

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 25 Sep 2019 09:39

muncien wrote:
DPatel304 wrote:
TNWE wrote:Why don't you go tell the UTD student/staff population that you don't think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of "nowhere?". Never mind that DART has TWICE had to buy more buses and expand the scope of Route 883 (the UTD shuttle to Cityline) because of exploding ridership. UTD has a base of ridership that will use the transit services that exists TODAY, unlike certain posters here who live in the most transit-dense part of Dallas, but continually make excuses for why they don't actually use DART services, and think they're entitled to their own "bullet point" - a subway line that serves *no new riders*, but assuages the insecurity they feel when comparing Dallas to NYC or Chicago, I guess...


So, after the Silver Line is built, what, do you feel, is the next step for DART? This is why I struggle with the Silver Line because it just seems like a short sighted expansion. I get that people live in the suburbs and they all want rail, I'm just not sure how to feasibly provide it to them. Personally, I'd rather see way more investment into public transit in the urban core. Make it much easier to live a car-free lifestyle, and maybe ridership numbers will really start to pick up then when you have more people who solely rely on DART to get around. Use that additional revenue to slowly expand outward from Downtown, to the greater Downtown area, and so forth.


I understand the desire to make Dallas core the transit dense neighborhood that it should be... But DART's service are is not strictly the urban core. I have pointed this out numerous times... DART's service area and funding is massively spread out and it's job is to provide transit to that entire service area... not just the core. Perhaps Dallas needs its own urban transit agency to supplement DART, but I don't see the funding mechanism for that.

As for the future of the DART service area... I truly think commuter rail lines are better at serving the service area. LRT is good, but the exceedingly long times to navigate the service area via bus and LRT are grossly inefficient.
What I do see happening sooner rather than later is the bus system being disolved almost entirely. Partnerships between DART and rideshare/autonomous services will eventually reach a point that it is cheaper to supplement than maintaning a large, inefficient, unreliable bus fleet. But those rideshare/autonomous services will not take you from A-Z on public funds... Instead, they will take you to the nearest rail station > which takes you to the station closest to your end point > where another rideshare/autonomous vehicle is ready and waiting for you (if necessary) instead of waiting on the next scheduled bus 30 mins later, that has only three people on it.
Establishing such a coheasive rail network across the populated centers of the service area is necessary to make such a system work.


Do you really think cities will just leave people out to dry without any public transit? I hope not.

First Uber/Lyft are way more expensive than the bus.Until autonomous technology can FULLY supplement drivers; it's not even a viable option.

Secondly, even if autonomous vehicles become the norm. Do we really want to everyone to have their personal charriot? The purpose of public is to reduce congestion not exacerbate it. Uber and Lyft have already come out and stated they make congestion worse. Now you want more people on the roads?

Then there's people with disabilities. How do you accommodate for people who have wheelchairs or have assisted animals. As it stands right now, Uber and Lyft can reject anyone the driver can't accommodate including these people. Which by all accounts, routinely happens.

I think the future is what is happening in China. ARTs should be what cities should strive for.

https://theconversation.com/why-trackle ... ail-103690

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muncien
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Re: Silver Line

Postby muncien » 25 Sep 2019 09:55

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
Do you really think cities will just leave people out to dry without any public transit? I hope not.

First Uber/Lyft are way more expensive than the bus.Until autonomous technology can FULLY supplement drivers; it's not even a viable option.

Secondly, even if autonomous vehicles become the norm. Do we really want to everyone to have their personal charriot? The purpose of public is to reduce congestion not exacerbate it. Uber and Lyft have already come out and stated they make congestion worse. Now you want more people on the roads?

Then there's people with disabilities. How do you accommodate for people who have wheelchairs or have assisted animals. As it stands right now, Uber and Lyft can reject anyone the driver can't accommodate including these people. Which by all accounts, routinely happens.

I think the future is what is happening in China. ARTs should be what cities should strive for.

https://theconversation.com/why-trackle ... ail-103690


Perhaps I didn't write my thoughts out properly...

I'm not advocating people own their own autonomous vehicle. That is completely impractical. I suspect the rich may own their own vehicles in the future, but even more likely a white glove, A-Z, black car service will probably be used to keep them seperate from the 'undesirables'. lol

Also... My whole point was that using these on-demand services to facilitate the A to B and Y to Z parts of the trip, while rail pulls the heavy/dense passenger C to X portion, means you end up with far LESS vehicles on the roads... not more. That is why I continue to say that a viable rail system is necessary across the service area.

When the first and/or last leg of your trip is 'on-demand' by rideshare/autonomous vehicle, it's pick-up can be timed perfectly with the train schedule. So, instead of waiting for a bus, then waiting at the train stop after you get off the bus, then waiting at the other end for another bus, everything is timed based on the only fixed element (train schedule). Add the fact that the vehicle can pick you up at your door step, and the massive time savings, you now have a viable transportation alternative for the masses, and not just those who have no other choice.

How much does DART currently spend per passenger trip on a bus? Not just for operations, but including the actual capital expences for the bus fleet itself? Now, take that amount, work a deal with rideshare/autonomous fleet provider, and split the difference. People would be far more likely to spend $10 on their transportation via that route, then $6 for a DART day pass that takes three times longer to get where you want to go. It also becomes a much more viable alternative to personal vehicle ownership at that point.
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electricron
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Re: Silver Line

Postby electricron » 30 Sep 2019 02:31

DPatel304 wrote:So, after the Silver Line is built, what, do you feel, is the next step for DART? This is why I struggle with the Silver Line because it just seems like a short sighted expansion. I get that people live in the suburbs and they all want rail, I'm just not sure how to feasibly provide it to them. Personally, I'd rather see way more investment into public transit in the urban core. Make it much easier to live a car-free lifestyle, and maybe ridership numbers will really start to pick up then when you have more people who solely rely on DART to get around. Use that additional revenue to slowly expand outward from Downtown, to the greater Downtown area, and so forth.

Isn't that the formula DART started with since the mid 1990s, start in the inner city and build out to the suburbs? The Silver Line has miles of track within the city limits of Dallas. So even it is being served by the Silver Line.

When almost half of DART's sales tax revenues come from the suburbs, do not be surprise that the suburbs actually expect a minimum level of service.

Here's the latest sales tax revenues I can find tonight. Read page 54.
https://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/debtdocu ... Report.pdf
FY2017
Dallas $284,150,000 (50.1%)
Plano 79,462,000 (14.0%)
Irving 63,852,000 (11.3%)
Carrollton 35,454,000 (6.1%)
Richardson 34,800,000 (6.1%)
Garland 27,581,000 (4.9%)
Farmers Branch 13,861,000 (2.4%)
Addison 13,288,000 (2.3%)
Rowlett 6,665,000 (1.2%)
University Park 4,059,000 (0.7%)
Highland Park 3,368,000 (0.6%)
Glenn Heights 516,000 (0.1%)
Cockrell Hill 362,000 (0.1%)
Total $567,418,000 (100%)

Here are some other fun facts great for a discussion.
Red Line cities %DART = 50.1 + 6.1 + 14.0 = 70.2%
Blue Line cities %DART = 50.1 + 4.9 +1.2 = 56.2%
Green Line cities %DART = 50.1 +2.4 +6.1 = 58.6%
Orange Line cities %DART = 50.1 + 11.3 = 61.4%
Silver Line cities %DART = 11.3 + 6.1 + 2.3 + 50.1 + 6.1 + 14.0 = 89.9%
D2 Line cities %DART = 50.1%
And some wonder why the Silver Line has such great political support?
Will it ever achieve the same ridership as the D2 Line? Probably not.
But as with most things in this world, money talks.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby itsjrd1964 » 07 Nov 2019 12:38

This article, which focuses primarily on projects affecting Addison Airport, later brings up the start of plans being made by the city to look into further development along and near the upcoming DART Silver Line. Nothing concrete as of yet, but retail, a food hall, and residential were some of the ideas mentioned.

It will be interesting to see how much of the city's nearby land will eventually be affected, as the city's major fesivals and events (Kaboom Town, Oktoberfest, Taste Addison) take place on the acreage just to the north of the Addison Transit Center and the upcoming rail line.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... n-addison/

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muncien
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Re: Silver Line

Postby muncien » 08 Nov 2019 08:30

itsjrd1964 wrote:This article, which focuses primarily on projects affecting Addison Airport, later brings up the start of plans being made by the city to look into further development along and near the upcoming DART Silver Line. Nothing concrete as of yet, but retail, a food hall, and residential were some of the ideas mentioned.

It will be interesting to see how much of the city's nearby land will eventually be affected, as the city's major fesivals and events (Kaboom Town, Oktoberfest, Taste Addison) take place on the acreage just to the north of the Addison Transit Center and the upcoming rail line.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... n-addison/


This line will surely make attending one of these events far more appealing. Getting into and out of Addison on event nights is dreadful. lol
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exelone31
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Re: Silver Line

Postby exelone31 » 08 Nov 2019 08:52

No kidding, I live pretty close to the UTD station, so it would be neat to be able to hop on the train a couple stops and be in Downtown Addison, or Downtown Carrollton for that matter.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby DPatel304 » 08 Nov 2019 10:37

itsjrd1964 wrote:This article, which focuses primarily on projects affecting Addison Airport, later brings up the start of plans being made by the city to look into further development along and near the upcoming DART Silver Line. Nothing concrete as of yet, but retail, a food hall, and residential were some of the ideas mentioned.

It will be interesting to see how much of the city's nearby land will eventually be affected, as the city's major fesivals and events (Kaboom Town, Oktoberfest, Taste Addison) take place on the acreage just to the north of the Addison Transit Center and the upcoming rail line.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... n-addison/


I've been against this project since it was announced. However, I will say that it will certainly be interesting to see how the area around these stations is developed, like you said. The majority of DART rail stations are in areas that are not as desirable, which is why a lot of them are still underdeveloped to this day. That won't be the case with the Silver line though, as it is connecting some pretty popular parts of town (comparatively).

This might make me actually warm up to the Silver Line a bit just because it might end up having some pretty densely developed stations when it's all said and done, which is what the system needs overall.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 08 Nov 2019 22:36

muncien wrote:This line will surely make attending one of these events far more appealing. Getting into and out of Addison on event nights is dreadful. lol


I take you didn't learn from the Texas-OU debacle. Big events are the things that rail transit are the absolute worst at. They just don't scale. Prepare to stand around for hours.

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quixomniac
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Re: Silver Line

Postby quixomniac » 09 Nov 2019 20:16

Hannibal Lecter wrote:
muncien wrote:This line will surely make attending one of these events far more appealing. Getting into and out of Addison on event nights is dreadful. lol


I take you didn't learn from the Texas-OU debacle. Big events are the things that rail transit are the absolute worst at. They just don't scale. Prepare to stand around for hours.


What TX OU debacle? The very first one years ago?
Riding the DART to the Fair in general is pretty popular nowadays and very easy.
TX OU has come and gone every year since with no problem that Ive heard about.

Additionally it's very common for MAVS/STARS games
and for the other large event in Dallas, the St. Patrick's Parade.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 10 Nov 2019 16:18

What he means is when the event is over tons of people cram on the trains and it takes a long time to get on the train because transit like DART was really designed for a much smaller number of people to get on and off at different stops. It still happens at the Fair every night when the park closes and everyone heads to the DART station and has to wait for sometimes three-four trains to pass through to finally get on one home. When you are a twentysomething it's fine to cram on an overfilled DART train but when you are a slow walking senior at the fair with young kids shoving yourself on a packed train is not ideal but its reality.

TX/OU still overloads the trains every year but its honestly just a reality that can't be solved until you have teleport technology. You just do your best to provide the most multi-modal transit system that allows people to choose from a selection of methods and increase capacity where you can during rush periods.

Its kinda like when I laugh because everyone wants to park right in front of their retail store door and not have to walk through the whole parking lot. The physical reality we live in means there is only a certain amount of physical space there and since no retail store usually attracts one customer at a time people have to park further away.

Its why designing our entire road system around peak traffic periods is a pretty ridiculous endeavor and expectation by the general populous. We literally spend billions so that every North Texan who thinks it's realistic for them all to get off work from 5-8 pm to get home in 5 mins going 70-90 mph on the highway. Most voters refuse to think about it beyond their own needs so they blame policymakers and honestly physical laws we all have to live by for their struggle of sitting in traffic.
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Re: Silver Line

Postby tamtagon » 10 Nov 2019 17:17

I think this line will eventually exceed expectations. The North Dallas neighborhoods are happily vapid, rebuke change of any sort and will one day undergo a gentrification of the mindset while the build environment changes just a little. The trains will be full even after the line is double tracked with station leap-frog express trains.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby quixomniac » 10 Nov 2019 18:51

cowboyeagle05 wrote:What he means is when the event is over tons of people cram on the trains and it takes a long time to get on the train because transit like DART was really designed for a much smaller number of people to get on and off at different stops. It still happens at the Fair every night when the park closes and everyone heads to the DART station and has to wait for sometimes three-four trains to pass through to finally get on one home. When you are a twentysomething it's fine to cram on an overfilled DART train but when you are a slow walking senior at the fair with young kids shoving yourself on a packed train is not ideal but its reality.

TX/OU still overloads the trains every year but its honestly just a reality that can't be solved until you have teleport technology. You just do your best to provide the most multi-modal transit system that allows people to choose from a selection of methods and increase capacity where you can during rush periods.

Its kinda like when I laugh because everyone wants to park right in front of their retail store door and not have to walk through the whole parking lot. The physical reality we live in means there is only a certain amount of physical space there and since no retail store usually attracts one customer at a time people have to park further away.

Its why designing our entire road system around peak traffic periods is a pretty ridiculous endeavor and expectation by the general populous. We literally spend billions so that every North Texan who thinks it's realistic for them all to get off work from 5-8 pm to get home in 5 mins going 70-90 mph on the highway. Most voters refuse to think about it beyond their own needs so they blame policymakers and honestly physical laws we all have to live by for their struggle of sitting in traffic.


Thanks for a detailed response! I suppose we share some views, but sometimes its good to have baselines numbers to define what we are talking about.
Mavs Games are around 20k so lets say that's a medium event.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/197 ... ince-2006/

State Fair on weekends is 100k, so lets say thats a large event.
https://bigtex.com/about-us/daily-attendance/

For medium events where everyone leaves at the same time like mavs games or concerts, I think Dart Train works really well, AAC has lots of multimodal transportation options. Some people drive and park, some people take the train which i feel is a smooth experience. Options cater to different demographics and needs.
and most importantly, people who live there WALK!!!!! Walkable neighborhoods make a difference.

For large events 100k+, like the fair i think its highly unlikely any type of transportation short of teleportation will make a difference like you said. Specially if everyone insists on leaving at the same time thru funnels like parking lot exits and highway ramps. Honestly people need to learn to be manage their expectations reasonably, going to the fair for me was a breeze, train or car because I choose to leave early, or come on off days. I remember before the train, parking at the fair was a nightmare! expecting to park inside the gates was unlikely. This last time I parked about 20 ft from the admission gate. This would have never happened if the train didnt alleviate alot of the traffic around the fair. Which loops back to another of your points I agree with. all the options work together, there is no single solution.

That being said, the reason the train is not as effective as it could be is because the frequency can't be increased due to the choke point that is downtown dallas. D2 will hopefully help with that, and will further more allow for express trains that will help people who do not need to get off at every stop but maybe at a line terminus like George Bush on the red line.

So we don't get off topic, Addison's Fourth of July is an event of 500k, and extra LARGE event. How does anyone move 500,000 people? Of course the silver line isn't going to move all of them, but it should help alleviate traffic significantly. Will it still be bad? probably, but its not going to get worse I hope.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2013/07 ... fireworks/

"Most voters refuse to think about it beyond their own needs so they blame policymakers and honestly physical laws we all have to live by for their struggle of sitting in traffic" well put.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby The_Overdog » 11 Nov 2019 09:03

The lines waiting for large events are not odd due to trains or anything else. Football games invented tailgating to deal with the large crowds and a wide event arrival time with driving. Addison fireworks is no different. It'll probably be better since a large number of people will be going both north and south (assuming the connection in Carrollton to Dallas is good).

Also extending the lines to support 3 cars means I went to the Fair on a busy day and didn't have to wait for a 2nd train this year. It was crowded, but there was enough space.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 11 Nov 2019 11:55

Prior to the Texas OU fiasco I posted the numbers here. Unfortunately that post was lost in the site crash. But the bottom line was that if you dedicated every piece of rolling stock that DART owned at the time to serving that one event, filled every car to theoretical capacity, and ran them through the station at some impossible rate like a train every 90 seconds, then to move 50,000 people (half the Cotton Bowl's capacity) it would take around 7 hours before the event to get everyone there and 7 hours after the event to get them home.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby tamtagon » 11 Nov 2019 13:04

^Clearly we need more trains!

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Re: Silver Line

Postby muncien » 11 Nov 2019 16:38

I absolutely love taking the train to/from the state fair and will never go back to driving there. I see similar at Addison for events like Oktoberfest and such. Kaboomtown, on the other hand will always be a mess. Getting in can easily be spread out over many hours, but just like football games (but multiplied many times over), the fireworks end at a given point and it is an absolute mess. It doesn't matter what mode of transportation you are taking.
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Re: Silver Line

Postby quixomniac » 12 Nov 2019 19:44

Hannibal Lecter wrote:Prior to the Texas OU fiasco I posted the numbers here. Unfortunately that post was lost in the site crash. But the bottom line was that if you dedicated every piece of rolling stock that DART owned at the time to serving that one event, filled every car to theoretical capacity, and ran them through the station at some impossible rate like a train every 90 seconds, then to move 50,000 people (half the Cotton Bowl's capacity) it would take around 7 hours before the event to get everyone there and 7 hours after the event to get them home.


Standard SLRV's can hold 150, id feel that is conservative, so lets say 200 squished or to account for extended trains, therefore 200people/1 train
https://www.dart.org/factsheet/slrv/default.asp
90 seconds? lets say a train every 120 seconds, or 30 trains per hour
200 ppl/1train * 30 train/hour =6000 people per hour
But given that trains can go in opposite directions since there are 2 rails, assume that both are filled so
12000 people per hour, so to move 50,000 people, it would take 5 hours.
Assuming that they all have enough time to board and get off
Which is incredible generous given my broad assumptions and lines up with your estimates, sortof.

For standard event like a mavs game around 20k, it's reasonable.
For a medium event like a regular fair day or a cotton bowl game 100k, perhaps its not enough
But it will eat into it a good chunk and ease traffic. But at least people can stick around for the fair

For a large event 100k+ like Addison Boomtown, which they argue is 500k, which I think is generous.
Since I have been to event with 500k people and its not even close. the 500k are spread out over a large area as the fireworks can be seen from all over outside of addison circle. The finality of the big moment means that everyone leaves at the same time as pointed out above. so I can admit it wont cut it. Perhaps double decker trains might do the trick. ? The grid lock is so bad the trains are literally the only thing moving.

But for other things like Oktoberfest which are more akin to the state fair. I think these estimates show the Silver Line is reasonable addition.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby electricron » 12 Nov 2019 21:18

quixomniac wrote:
Hannibal Lecter wrote:Prior to the Texas OU fiasco I posted the numbers here. Unfortunately that post was lost in the site crash. But the bottom line was that if you dedicated every piece of rolling stock that DART owned at the time to serving that one event, filled every car to theoretical capacity, and ran them through the station at some impossible rate like a train every 90 seconds, then to move 50,000 people (half the Cotton Bowl's capacity) it would take around 7 hours before the event to get everyone there and 7 hours after the event to get them home.


Standard SLRV's can hold 150, id feel that is conservative, so lets say 200 squished or to account for extended trains, therefore 200people/1 train
https://www.dart.org/factsheet/slrv/default.asp
90 seconds? lets say a train every 120 seconds, or 30 trains per hour
200 ppl/1train * 30 train/hour =6000 people per hour
But given that trains can go in opposite directions since there are 2 rails, assume that both are filled so
12000 people per hour, so to move 50,000 people, it would take 5 hours.
Assuming that they all have enough time to board and get off
Which is incredible generous given my broad assumptions and lines up with your estimates, sortof.
For standard event like a mavs game around 20k, it's reasonable.
For a medium event like a regular fair day or a cotton bowl game 100k, perhaps its not enough
But it will eat into it a good chunk and ease traffic. But at least people can stick around for the fair
.

You have pointed out a truth about mass transit. But your data needs improvements. A SLRV has a seating capacity of 100, and a maximum capacity of 200 per DART’s web site, including the link you provided.
Green Line trains can have three SLRV per train. So each Green Line train can have 300 seats and a maximum capacity of 600. DART run Green Line trains with 20 minute headways, so that is three trains per hour from downtown, and anther three trains per hour from Loop 12.
Math for Green Line:
6x600 =3600 passengers per hour.
To date, Red Line trains can have two SLRV per train, with the same headways in effect, but only come to Fair Park through the nearby maintenance facility from one direction - from Plano. So only three trains of two SLRV reach Fair Park.
Math for Red Line:
3x400=1200 passengers per hour.
Total capacity at Fair Park Is 4800 passengers per hour with the Green Line doing most of the work.
Total Math= 3600+1200=4800

In 10 hours, the most DART can get to Fair Park is 48,000 passengers. With frequent 11 am starts for the game, in 5 hours that is 24,000 passengers.

It would be entirely speculation how many more passengers can be crammed onto the trains.

It could be possible for DART to run more trains, perhaps twice as many, from every 20 minutes to every 10 minutes. That’s the headways on these lines during rush hours. In that case, 48,000 passengers could reach Fair Park in 5 hours.

But it would take all day and all night (20 hours total, 10 before and 10 after) for DART’s light rail system to move 100,000 passenger to and from Fair Park, plus anther 3 to 4 hours for the game.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby quixomniac » 13 Nov 2019 03:26

electricron wrote:You have pointed out a truth about mass transit. But your data needs improvements. A SLRV has a seating capacity of 100, and a maximum capacity of 200 per DART’s web site, including the link you provided.
Green Line trains can have three SLRV per train. So each Green Line train can have 300 seats and a maximum capacity of 600. DART run Green Line trains with 20 minute headways, so that is three trains per hour from downtown, and anther three trains per hour from Loop 12.
Math for Green Line:
6x600 =3600 passengers per hour.
To date, Red Line trains can have two SLRV per train, with the same headways in effect, but only come to Fair Park through the nearby maintenance facility from one direction - from Plano. So only three trains of two SLRV reach Fair Park.
Math for Red Line:
3x400=1200 passengers per hour.
Total capacity at Fair Park Is 4800 passengers per hour with the Green Line doing most of the work.
Total Math= 3600+1200=4800

In 10 hours, the most DART can get to Fair Park is 48,000 passengers. With frequent 11 am starts for the game, in 5 hours that is 24,000 passengers.

It would be entirely speculation how many more passengers can be crammed onto the trains.

It could be possible for DART to run more trains, perhaps twice as many, from every 20 minutes to every 10 minutes. That’s the headways on these lines during rush hours. In that case, 48,000 passengers could reach Fair Park in 5 hours.

But it would take all day and all night (20 hours total, 10 before and 10 after) for DART’s light rail system to move 100,000 passenger to and from Fair Park, plus anther 3 to 4 hours for the game.


Thanks for the data!, mine were more back of a napkin calculations,
That being said, it's always great to see input from members who have access to more qualified information
Is there any info on the load capacity of Silver Line trains? since they are obviously not going to be SLRV's

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Re: Silver Line

Postby tamtagon » 13 Nov 2019 06:32

For those big days at Fair Park, doesn't DART run passenger trains on the service track thru South Dallas for additional capacity? Hopefully, those tracks through South Dallas/Cedars will expand for regular service, opening up a new part of town for the pedestrian environment.

In regard to the Silver Line, my wish list includes line a new connecting Frisco sport entertainment, rapidly compacting Frisco/Plano business district, Addison, Galleria/Midtown, Love Field, Medical District, Victory Park, Dallas CBD, TexasCentral HSR, Fair Park, Mesquite, Forney, Terrell all the way to Shreveport.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby Redblock » 14 Nov 2019 01:59

I got a notification from DART. On Monday, Nov. 18 actual work will actually begin on the Silver Line.....actually.


https://www.dart.org/about/expansion/co ... on=12nov19


Mostly it will be removing the existing track and some utility relocation.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby electricron » 15 Nov 2019 08:59

quixomniac wrote:Thanks for the data!, mine were more back of a napkin calculations,
That being said, it's always great to see input from members who have access to more qualified information
Is there any info on the load capacity of Silver Line trains? since they are obviously not going to be SLRV's

DART's Silver Line trains will be almost identical to TexRail trains. They consist of 4 car DMU versions of FLIRTs built by Stadler.
Their capacity is 229 seats with a crunch capacity of 488.

When single track was under discussions, the minimum headways was once every 20 minutes during rush and once every 30 minutes normally. The proposed headways are once every 30 minutes during rush and once every 60 minutes normally. I believe that is still the recommend train frequencies although the entire line will be double track. Depending upon how much signaling is installed and how many trains are purchased, it could have headways as short as every 2 to 3 minutes - just like DART's light rail lines through the street mall. But they only bought 8 trains.

The Silver Line length is 26 miles, a round trip should be 52 miles. Expect an average speed around 30 mph, so normally they could run the 60 minute headway service with just 2 trains. During rush hours with 30 minute headways, they would need 4 trains.

For the Silver Line only, assuming an average speed that allows one train to take two hours to complete a lap, 4 trains provide 30 minute headways, 6 trains 20 minute headways, 8 trains 15 minute headways.

The following math would apply for a station in the middle - like Addison:
1 train in service = 1 x 488 = 488 passengers/hour alighting or boarding
2 trains = 2x 488 = 976 passengers/hour alighting or boarding
3 trains = 3 x 488 = 1464 passengers/hour alighting or boarding
4 trains = 4 x 488 = 1952 passengers/hour alighting or boarding
5 trains = 5 x 488 = 2440 passengers/hour alighting or boarding
6 trains = 6 x 488 = 2928 passengers/hour alighting or boarding
7 trains = 7 x 488 = 3416 passengers/hour alighting or boarding
8 trains = 8 x 488 =3904 passengers/hour alighting or boarding

Additionally, there are couplers on these trains. DART more likely would double the capacity of the train by coupling two of them together than halving their headways to reduce the amount of signaling. with 8 trains sets making just 4 trains, a headway of every 30 minutes is sufficient to maximize ridership of the 8 train sets.
Last edited by electricron on 16 Nov 2019 09:17, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby joshua.dodd » 15 Nov 2019 18:59

Redblock wrote:I got a notification from DART. On Monday, Nov. 18 actual work will actually begin on the Silver Line.....actually.


https://www.dart.org/about/expansion/co ... on=12nov19


Mostly it will be removing the existing track and some utility relocation.


It's a leap forward.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby bachmanlad » 09 Jan 2020 23:30

https://www.railwaygazette.com/traction ... 11.article

DART has picked Stadler, the Silver Line rolling stock manufacturer, to handle rolling stock maintenance on the Silver Line. This is Stadler's first U.S. maintenance contract.

Stadler must have given DART a really good deal to break into the U.S. market. I would think Herzog Transit Services, the global contractor that already does the maintenance for TEXRail, the TRE, the A-Train, and a number of other U.S. and European transit agencies, would have been the more obvious choice.

And I still wonder why DART chose the TRE facility over the TEXRail facility for Silver Line maintenance.
Is DART is already thinking seriously enough about the Irving-Legacy line (which would terminate near the TRE facility) for that to have influenced the decision? Are DART/TM considering switching the TRE to Stadler DMUs as well?
There are probably too many factors at play to speculate, though.

P.S. - I hope the "option to add bike racks" means they will be included from the start, not added after the Silver Line has been running for a while.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 10 Jan 2020 10:56

DART just loves to throw money at new/experimental stuff that's incompatible with everything they've already got, then acts surprised when it's crap. Example: The Oak Cliff streetcar.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby northsouth » 10 Jan 2020 21:54

DART wanted to put the maintenance facility in Carrollton, at the northeast corner of Belt Line and Luna, but Carrollton wouldn't give them the ok (a new warehouse has since been built on the spot). So then the options would be to use TEXRail's facility, or the TRE one. The TEXRail site would probably need to be expanded to handle more trains, and deadheading DART trains halfway down the TEXRail line could be troublesome schedule-wise. The TRE facility also requires expansion, but there only freight trains on the line from Carrollton until Irving where the TRE enters the picture, so scheduling is easier. Also, DART co-owns the TRE facility, unlike the TEXRail shops. As far as I know, there are no plans to convert the TRE to DMUs, and the Irving-Legacy-Frisco line is still just an idea. Despite a growing acceptance by the federal regulators with regards to lightweight European-type passenger trains co-existing with heavy American freight trains, they generally only let them share tracks with light switching trains, usually running when the passengers aren't. If/when TEXRail extends further south, they'll need to add a track separate from the FWWR track, since that part of the line sees much more traffic than the northern part.

Technologically, it isn't a bad idea for the company that built the trains be the one to provide maintenance. And I wouldn't call it experimental like the streetcar; the FLIRT and the smaller but similar GTW (what the A-Train uses) are used all over Europe, over 1500 trainsets sold in total.

There was lobbying by DART and others for Stadler to build their new US factory in DFW, given the number of lines using their vehicles here (DCTA, TEXRail, DART, as well as Austin), but in the end they decided on Salt Lake City; either they had a better deal and/or it's closer to San Francisco, since they're building the large order of double-decker trainsets for the electrification of CalTrain.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby bachmanlad » 11 Jan 2020 01:57

Great explanation, thanks. I hadn't really thought about freight traffic or scheduling, nor was I aware of the lobbying for the Stadler factory to be built in DFW.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby electricron » 11 Jan 2020 21:40

northsouth wrote:Technologically, it isn't a bad idea for the company that built the trains be the one to provide maintenance. And I wouldn't call it experimental like the streetcar; the FLIRT and the smaller but similar GTW (what the A-Train uses) are used all over Europe, over 1500 trainsets sold in total.

Number of regional train sets built or sold by Stadler per Wiki
GTWs; As of 2011, 551 train sets have been built for operators in 8 countries.
FLIRT; As of 18 April 2018, more than 1,500 units have been sold to operators in 18 countries.
KISS; As of 2016, 242 KISS trainsets have been sold to operators in 9 countries.
SMILE(EC250); In 2014, Stadler Rail won a tender to deliver 29 units by 2019 to Swiss Federal Railways with an option for up to 92 more.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby itsjrd1964 » 13 Jan 2020 08:54

I wonder how the Silver route will overlap with the Red/Orange line. There isn't much room between Cityline/Bush and 12th Street for 2 more parallel tracks, but on the other hand, the non-electric Silver trains can't run on the electrified Red/Orange line. I have seen recent work on the east-side embankment of the Red/Orange between Plano Pkwy. and the Bush Turnpike. What's there though, isn't wide enough to accomodate another rail line.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby MC_ScattCat » 13 Jan 2020 13:34

itsjrd1964 wrote:I wonder how the Silver route will overlap with the Red/Orange line. There isn't much room between Cityline/Bush and 12th Street for 2 more parallel tracks, but on the other hand, the non-electric Silver trains can't run on the electrified Red/Orange line. I have seen recent work on the east-side embankment of the Red/Orange between Plano Pkwy. and the Bush Turnpike. What's there though, isn't wide enough to accomodate another rail line.


I worked on some of the design work for this project. The plan is to build a bridge across 75 then turn north over the Red/Orange line. The Cityline station will be at grade to go under the turnpike. It will then go elevated again where the 12th St. station will be elevated. There are some business that will be torn down to make way for the turn to the east towards Shiloh station.

Also, the post above where the maintenance yard in Carrollton was next to Luna/Belt Line is correct. It would have gone in the area where the warehouses are now.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby bachmanlad » 13 Jan 2020 17:33

MC_ScattCat wrote:I worked on some of the design work for this project.


I assume you worked on the engineering design aspect, not the transit planning aspect, but do you know any specific reasons that station was added to the plans in the first place? Transferring at Bush instead of 12th Street would only add something like five or 10 minutes to a Parker-Shiloh trip, and there's a significant walk between the two platforms. Was it politics with Plano, a TOD shill, urban infill, making scheduling easier, or what?

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Re: Silver Line

Postby electricron » 13 Jan 2020 22:47

bachmanlad wrote:I assume you worked on the engineering design aspect, not the transit planning aspect, but do you know any specific reasons that station was added to the plans in the first place? Transferring at Bush instead of 12th Street would only add something like five or 10 minutes to a Parker-Shiloh trip, and there's a significant walk between the two platforms. Was it politics with Plano, a TOD shill, urban infill, making scheduling easier, or what?

Politics is your answer. Both Plano and Richardson wanted a train station for transfers between the Silver and Red Lines, and DART made both of them happy. Meanwhile, Dallas did not want more than one train station in far north Dallas, and DART made them happy too.
It is easier to add a train station financially when other train stations are subtracted. ;)
You also avoid troublesome lawsuits from nimbys as well when you build train stations where they are wanted and not where they are not wanted. ;)
I read all the time on many different web based forums that DART does not listen to us, but the Silver Line is an excellent example when DART did listen to its major stakeholders and local organized groups during the EIS process.
Politics is the art of making something possible happen - it does not always result in using the best designs or placing stations to have the best ridership, or in prioritizing which transit lines to build first.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby muncien » 14 Jan 2020 09:21

I also suspect that DART wanted to have the opportunity to one day extend the commuter rail line much further north (Allen/McKinney) should the opportunity present itself. Doing that extension via Light Rail starts getting beyond optimal Light Rail conditions. Heck, even it's current length is a little excessive according to some experts.
But, commuter rail is much more suited to those distances with fewer intermediate stations.
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Re: Silver Line

Postby The_Overdog » 14 Jan 2020 09:21

I read all the time on many different web based forums that DART does not listen to us, but the Silver Line is an excellent example when DART did listen to its major stakeholders and local organized groups during the EIS process.


I don't think that's what people mean when they say 'DART doesn't listen to the people'. I mean, Plano already has the land around the Parker Road station severely underutilized, and the 15th street station is less than 1 mile from the 12th S station. After this line is built, somehow a seriously underutilized and under-peopled low-intensity industrial corner of Plano will have equal transit access to a place like Queens NY.

In any case, the original design followed the existing rail line, which bypasses CityLine, and Richardson paid for at least a portion of the redesign to go through Bush CityLine instead, which is the answer to bachmanlad's question.

Forgot to add: the original railline passes south of Collin Creek Mall in an area that is just a total mess from a road/access perspective, and is probably just a bit too far from Collin Creek Mall to be useful without a serious redesign, so CityLine actually makes more sense.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby MC_ScattCat » 14 Jan 2020 13:32

I was apart of the engineering side of things. Some of the routes and station locations were made before I ever came on. Everything DART told us was they always wanted a two track line from DFW to at a minimum Wylie. They also said Plano and Richardson were putting pressure on them to put some of the locations in place. I know they have future plans to extend or some sort of rail to McKinney. I believe they mentioned an "express" train of sorts. Most of the NIMBYs (which includes some family members) were worried about noise and imagine a TRE style train. DART removed some of the stations in these areas to appease them.

One area I wish we DART thought about more is a circle around Dallas county and more service to Mesquite areas. Purple Line anyone?

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Re: Silver Line

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 14 Jan 2020 13:39

MC_ScattCat wrote:One area I wish we DART thought about more is a circle around Dallas county and more service to Mesquite areas. Purple Line anyone?

... Mesquite, Allen, McKinney, Frisco have already said they don't want to be part of Dart. Why does everyone keep dreaming of expansion, towards areas that don't want transit? Any and all Ideas should be focused on better servicing the current service area, especially dense neighborhoods in the core.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby muncien » 14 Jan 2020 13:46

MC_ScattCat wrote:One area I wish we DART thought about more is a circle around Dallas county and more service to Mesquite areas. Purple Line anyone?


I know this doesn't have any business being in the 'Silver Line' thread, but I always figured Loop 12 (generally) would make a good BRT line. Essentially, any road construction along loop 12 corridor should include two lanes in the median dedicated for extended buses and dedicated 'rail like' stations at prominent intersections. More prominent routes, such as White Rock station to Bachman station could be built first, with extensions to follow.
It would be way cheaper than trying to do rail through there...
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Re: Silver Line

Postby itsjrd1964 » 14 Jan 2020 14:58

MC_ScattCat wrote:
itsjrd1964 wrote:I wonder how the Silver route will overlap with the Red/Orange line. There isn't much room between Cityline/Bush and 12th Street for 2 more parallel tracks, but on the other hand, the non-electric Silver trains can't run on the electrified Red/Orange line. I have seen recent work on the east-side embankment of the Red/Orange between Plano Pkwy. and the Bush Turnpike. What's there though, isn't wide enough to accomodate another rail line.


I worked on some of the design work for this project. The plan is to build a bridge across 75 then turn north over the Red/Orange line. The Cityline station will be at grade to go under the turnpike. It will then go elevated again where the 12th St. station will be elevated. There are some business that will be torn down to make way for the turn to the east towards Shiloh station.


Ok, but in between Cityline/Bush and 12th Street, is the Silver going to be parallel to the Red/Orange (and how?), and at the point they split, I assume one line will have to be at a different grade than the other?

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Re: Silver Line

Postby The_Overdog » 14 Jan 2020 15:43

https://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/about/ex ... 2jul19.pdf

This doc shows that the line will run to the right/east (I think) of the existing red line with the station at CityLine to the east of the existing station. If you check it does look like they will need to purchase or be really careful with their design to avoid taking a lot of property in Plano.

https://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/about/ex ... 3sep19.pdf

This is an old one that shows it will continue south before crossing US75 just south of the G Bush access lanes and south of CityLine Drive in Richardson - the bridge will be surprisingly tall and visible I would think. It will then be built on the Spring Creek Trail (trail will be moved to the west) until it meets with the existing rail line around Alma Road.

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exelone31
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Re: Silver Line

Postby exelone31 » 14 Jan 2020 16:25

The_Overdog wrote:https://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/about/expansion/cottonbelt/DARTCottonBeltMeeting22jul19.pdf

This doc shows that the line will run to the right/east (I think) of the existing red line with the station at CityLine to the east of the existing station. If you check it does look like they will need to purchase or be really careful with their design to avoid taking a lot of property in Plano.


Great find! I believe the Cityline station will be to the West of the current station. That way it does not need to go underneath the existing Red Line tracks.

I'm wondering if that will kick off more development on the west side of the line. They've been constructing that Drury Hotel for what feels like a decade.

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quixomniac
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Re: Silver Line

Postby quixomniac » 15 Jan 2020 01:20

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
MC_ScattCat wrote:One area I wish we DART thought about more is a circle around Dallas county and more service to Mesquite areas. Purple Line anyone?

... Mesquite, Allen, McKinney, Frisco have already said they don't want to be part of Dart. Why does everyone keep dreaming of expansion, towards areas that don't want transit? Any and all Ideas should be focused on better servicing the current service area, especially dense neighborhoods in the core.


Honestly at this point ive given up on this All-for one metroplex sentimentality of trying to include suburbs that obviously dont want anything to do with the rest of the area. Instead of investing in public transportation, they use their tax dollars for tax breaks to lure companies from out of state (or steal from Dallas) or in the case of Arlington, the next tourist trap. Ironically, their success will eventually force their hand due to the ridiculous traffic. But that's prerogative. it's their money to use as they see fit.

However, they shouldnt get to mouch off all this rail infrastructure either. Ticket prices should somehow be tied to their residence via an app. Once this opens, i imagine out of dart area people parking their cars and over loading the parking spaces similar to how they already do the red line's farther northern portions.