Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

DART D2 Subway

User avatar
Hannibal Lecter
Posts: 495
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 19:57

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 07 Nov 2019 13:07

^ The Lizard Lounge owners have already purchased the It'll Do Club for their backup plan.

cowboyeagle05
Posts: 2058
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 08:45
Location: Dallas

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 07 Nov 2019 13:32

That's a step down in size even though good shows happen at It'll Do all the time. I imagine they are still looking at where their next location will be but they are currently grandfathered in at Lizard's current abode so anything new will require some new service expectations.

User avatar
bachmanlad
Posts: 15
Joined: 03 Aug 2019 23:30
Location: NW Dallas

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby bachmanlad » 18 Nov 2019 23:24

Nov. 13 D2 meeting recap:

Metro Center Station:
The exits on Elm have been eliminated. The only ones left are the ones at West TC, in Rosa Parks Plaza, and across Griffin from West TC. The headhouses (aboveground structures) are now much bigger as well. I heard someone ask about possible connections to the pedestrian tunnels, and the answer was a pretty firm 'no,' citing security concerns on behalf of the building owners and the difficulty of funneling all the entrances through turnstiles.

Commerce Street Station:
Shifted entirely about a block to the west. The number of exits has also been reduced from the previous four to two: Pegasus Plaza and the SW corner of Commerce and Ervay. The main entrance is now in Pegasus Plaza, taking up a significant portion of it. The exit that was in the currently fenced-off little pocket east of AT&T has been downgraded to a ventilation shaft.

CBD East Station:
There is now (finally) a preliminary design for CBD East Station. Like the new Metro Center design, it will have large headhouses - one on the SE corner of Elm and Pearl and a smaller one on the SE corner of Pearl and Main.

East tunnel opening:
DART is trying to find a developer willing to build something straddling the tunnel opening, "making it a part of the urban fabric/so that you'll never know it's there."

Deep Ellum/Live Oak Station:
Seems pretty certain now. It's being moved from Good Latimer at Swiss to Good Latimer at Live Oak.

Also interesting:
DART is considering redesigning the East TC or getting rid of it completely. I asked, and they said they are considering opening it to development and building a new bus TC on the bottom of the new development or just selling it outright.

Edit 1: typo. Edit 2: whoops, forgot to link the PowerPoint.
https://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/about/ex ... 3nov19.pdf
Last edited by bachmanlad on 19 Nov 2019 11:32, edited 2 times in total.

DPatel304
Posts: 1698
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 18:49
Location: Turtle Creek

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby DPatel304 » 19 Nov 2019 10:44

Thanks for the recap! I'm a very visual person, so it's a little tricky for me to picture some of the proposed stations, but I'm glad to hear the Deep Ellum station isn't disappearing. I'm wondering why they chose to reduce the number of exits for a couple of the stations though, that seems like a step back.

bachmanlad wrote:Also interesting:
DART is considering redesigning the East TC or getting rid of it completely. I asked, and they said they are considering opening it to development and building a new bus TC on the bottom of the new development or just selling it outright.


What a pleasant surprise! Whenever I'm in the area, I always think that land could be put to better use. I'm not expecting anything anytime soon, but glad they are considering other options.
Last edited by DPatel304 on 19 Nov 2019 11:10, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
THRILLHO
Posts: 36
Joined: 26 Oct 2016 21:20

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby THRILLHO » 19 Nov 2019 11:08

A shame about the Deep Ellum station, but otherwise all very exciting stuff.
Maybe losing the Deep Ellum station would be an incentive for us to get a streetcar line running the length of Main st? Now that I’m thinking about it, I can envision an ART line that connects the Smart/Convention Center/City Hall area to Pegasus Plaza and on to Deep Ellum.

DPatel304 wrote:Thanks for the recap! I'm a very visual person, so it's a little tricky for me to picture some of the proposed stations, but I'm glad to hear the Deep Ellum station isn't disappearing. I'm wondering why they chose to reduce the number of exits for a couple of the stations though, that seems like a step back.

The presentation slides have a bunch of great visuals:
https://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/about/expansion/d2/D2PublicMeeting13nov19.pdf

The Deep Ellum station isn't disappearing but it still kind of feels like it is ahah. Better than no station at all but it's getting scooted far enough up that it doesn't realistically serve as a rail stop for Deep Ellum anymore. From the new spot it's a solid 10 to 15 minute walk into Deep Ellum depending on where you're going. If this is what has to happen then that's fine, but it's still kind of a bummer to me.

-----

Also, I didn’t realize what a large structure they had planned for the Metro center station.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

DPatel304
Posts: 1698
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 18:49
Location: Turtle Creek

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby DPatel304 » 19 Nov 2019 16:01

THRILLHO wrote:The Deep Ellum station isn't disappearing but it still kind of feels like it is ahah. Better than no station at all but it's getting scooted far enough up that it doesn't realistically serve as a rail stop for Deep Ellum anymore. From the new spot it's a solid 10 to 15 minute walk into Deep Ellum depending on where you're going. If this is what has to happen then that's fine, but it's still kind of a bummer to me.


Thanks for the link to the presentation! Originally I know they were planning on getting rid of the station completely, so I'm glad that is no longer the case.

Also, you still have the Baylor station which has always been more convenient to Deep Ellum, IMO.

User avatar
bachmanlad
Posts: 15
Joined: 03 Aug 2019 23:30
Location: NW Dallas

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby bachmanlad » 19 Nov 2019 18:40

DPatel304 wrote:I'm wondering why they chose to reduce the number of exits for a couple of the stations though, that seems like a step back.

THRILLHO wrote:Also, I didn’t realize what a large structure they had planned for the Metro center station.

1) I'm thinking the exits at the south end of Metro Center may have been scratched because of some complication caused by the existing tunnels there.
2) Maybe they ran the numbers, decided that having as many exits as they had was too expensive, and had to scale back.
3) Judging by the presentation, it seems like they wanted to focus on having a few large, prominent, naturally lit exits rather than a bunch of more convenient but smaller and less visible ones. Typical DART thinking, putting form over function to attract so-called "choice riders".

I very much agree it's a step backward. The smaller and more accessible the stations are, the better they will integrate with the urban fabric and the more they will be used. In the cities with the biggest subway systems, entrances are either directly integrated into development or hardly more than an escalator from the sidewalk to the platform. The kind of advertisement DART wants to do here is misguided - if people think the convenience of taking the train rivals the convenience of their cars (or Ubers), they will choose the train, and if they don't, they won't. Nothing else matters, and anything more is just taking up space that would be better used as parkland or other development. To that end, DART should be trying to eliminate at-grade street crossings and reduce walks through station concourses wherever possible, not trying to turn the subway into a "destination" or an "experience".

DPatel304 wrote:Whenever I'm in the area, I always think that land could be put to better use.

Really, though. It's like it was designed to be as space-sucking and useless as possible. I'd rant about it here, but it's probably worthy of its own thread on the bus boards.

User avatar
Hannibal Lecter
Posts: 495
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 19:57

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 19 Nov 2019 20:23

The city needs to put its foot down and say "Hell No" to closing all those streets around the Good Latimer station.

It's bad enough that DART already replaced two grade-separated intersections with traffic signals, blocked off multiple streets including Swiss Avenue and Race Street, regularly block access to a fire station and a level one trauma center for minutes at a time and turned eastbound Main Street into a joke. And now they want to double down on it with all these other street closures?

Dumb asses.

User avatar
muncien
Posts: 1021
Joined: 25 Oct 2016 08:46
Location: Cypress Waters

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby muncien » 20 Nov 2019 09:44

bachmanlad wrote:
DPatel304 wrote:I'm wondering why they chose to reduce the number of exits for a couple of the stations though, that seems like a step back.

THRILLHO wrote:Also, I didn’t realize what a large structure they had planned for the Metro center station.

1) I'm thinking the exits at the south end of Metro Center may have been scratched because of some complication caused by the existing tunnels there.
2) Maybe they ran the numbers, decided that having as many exits as they had was too expensive, and had to scale back.
3) Judging by the presentation, it seems like they wanted to focus on having a few large, prominent, naturally lit exits rather than a bunch of more convenient but smaller and less visible ones. Typical DART thinking, putting form over function to attract so-called "choice riders".

I very much agree it's a step backward. The smaller and more accessible the stations are, the better they will integrate with the urban fabric and the more they will be used. In the cities with the biggest subway systems, entrances are either directly integrated into development or hardly more than an escalator from the sidewalk to the platform. The kind of advertisement DART wants to do here is misguided - if people think the convenience of taking the train rivals the convenience of their cars (or Ubers), they will choose the train, and if they don't, they won't. Nothing else matters, and anything more is just taking up space that would be better used as parkland or other development. To that end, DART should be trying to eliminate at-grade street crossings and reduce walks through station concourses wherever possible, not trying to turn the subway into a "destination" or an "experience".

DPatel304 wrote:Whenever I'm in the area, I always think that land could be put to better use.

Really, though. It's like it was designed to be as space-sucking and useless as possible. I'd rant about it here, but it's probably worthy of its own thread on the bus boards.


^^^
Couldn't have said it better. Typical DART fashion to overbuild EVERYTHING for the sake of form over function. My rants against D2 over the years don't need to be regurgitated. The one small opportunity to make something of it was by peppering small entrances throughout the city core to at least give the impression that more people could be served. And now we see that even that has been screwed up. But hey, at least we have a 'subway' like the big city folks. smh
"He doesn't know how to use the three seashells..."

User avatar
THRILLHO
Posts: 36
Joined: 26 Oct 2016 21:20

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby THRILLHO » 20 Nov 2019 17:06

I'm curious to see how the west portal will impact the viability of future development on this parking lot. Doesn't seem very appealing to have a development flanked by a freeway on one side, an exit ramp on another, and this rather lengthy impassable portal on another. I would not be surprised if this ends up being the last undeveloped lot in the loop.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
dzh
Posts: 47
Joined: 14 Dec 2016 20:24

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby dzh » 21 Nov 2019 08:18

I really think D2 is a total mess with this portal system and it's Victory Park route. We need D2 badly, but part of me wonders if it's worth it if it get poorly constructed. This west portal goes right through the recently purchased South Asian Museum land, and then the east portal is a mess when it comes to right aways. They need to figure out a better area to get these tunnel portals built.

User avatar
northsouth
Posts: 53
Joined: 26 Oct 2016 18:59

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby northsouth » 08 Dec 2019 18:30

Interesting tidbit from the latest DART board presentation on D2. The plan for light rail lines downtown from 1988 had the Red and Blue lines running as a subway underneath State St in Uptown, Pearl St, and Pacific Ave before returning to the surface west of Houston St. Stations were between Routh and Fairmount on State, at Ross and Pearl, at Ervay and Pacific (the station shell dug out as part of the construction of 1700 Pacific), at Griffin as the transfer to the Green line, and Union Station.

It also shows a subway alignment for the Green line, going underground north of Woodall Rodgers, then traveling under Griffin, then Marilla before heading north under Good-Latimer to what was previously planned as the eastern D2 junction north of Elm, after which it would presumably surface near Malcolm X. Stations are south of Woodall Rodgers in the parking lots between the old and new segments of Griffin, the transfer to the Red and Blue Lines (Metro Center under the current plan), at City Hall (also where a space was dug out for a station during construction decades ago), and between Harwood and Pearl by the Farmers Market. This is as far as I know the oldest version of D2 as we know it (there's a map that seems to be associated with the original 1983 proposal with a ton of lines that shows several surface and subway downtown alignments, but I don't consider it similar enough to count). The plan for the second line downtown put on hold until the planning for the Green line around 2003 or so, at which point it was again deferred, next appearing in the 2030 Service Plan of 2006 as an independent project to be built after the Green and Orange lines; the D2 project as it came to be called has been debated and planned and deferred on and off ever since.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
electricron
Posts: 261
Joined: 29 Oct 2016 11:07

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 09 Dec 2019 12:42

northsouth wrote:Interesting tidbit from the latest DART board presentation on D2. The plan for light rail lines downtown from 1988......

It had to take you time to find such an old map, thanks of the effort. But it is a planner's map before those little and large pesky details get in the way. There were probably other maps of alternate routes from way back then - this is probably one of many. The lines in this old map do not allow the sharing of rolling stock from one line to another is probably the largest pesky detail operators want that planners often ignore initially. Then politics from stakeholders along the route have their say, and before long what you end up getting looks nothing at all what they initially started with. That's life.

User avatar
xen0blue
Posts: 54
Joined: 14 Nov 2016 13:36

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby xen0blue » 17 Dec 2019 10:44

Only 3 underground stations?? What's even the point

User avatar
electricron
Posts: 261
Joined: 29 Oct 2016 11:07

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 26 Dec 2019 07:38

xen0blue wrote:Only 3 underground stations?? What's even the point

Is there a must have need for more? Have you priced the costs to build and maintain a subway station?
Since the very first alternate proposals with the EIS planning process, the subway build has always had fewer stations than a surface build. Yet, the city council has always pushed for the subway alternate.

cowboyeagle05
Posts: 2058
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 08:45
Location: Dallas

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 26 Dec 2019 10:06

DART is Light Rail and while I generally support a below-grade option I prefer it with the right tech and DART isn't ready to change its operation around different technology yet. The one thing I constantly explain to transplants is why DART isn't like some of the bigger city transits they are used to. Light Rail and Heavy Rail are different and people have to accept that DART was built for the burbs, not urban Dallas. What the Dallas City council really was doing was trying to wield some strength against the wrong problem. The real problem is that our Rail system is geared towards Planoites getting into the city and back again at rush hour. It's not designed or useful for inner-city back and forth.

User avatar
electricron
Posts: 261
Joined: 29 Oct 2016 11:07

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 27 Dec 2019 08:20

cowboyeagle05 wrote:DART is Light Rail and while I generally support a below-grade option I prefer it with the right tech and DART isn't ready to change its operation around different technology yet. The one thing I constantly explain to transplants is why DART isn't like some of the bigger city transits they are used to. Light Rail and Heavy Rail are different and people have to accept that DART was built for the burbs, not urban Dallas. What the Dallas City council really was doing was trying to wield some strength against the wrong problem. The real problem is that our Rail system is geared towards Planoites getting into the city and back again at rush hour. It's not designed or useful for inner-city back and forth.

I'm going to disagree with you on the cause. It is not the technology being used as much as the spacing between stations that make DART geared more suburban than urban. That can be fixed just by adding stations on all the existing lines.

Let's just look at the Red Line for simplicity sake to verify my point of view. One could add stations at;
RL Thorton, S. Lamar, Blackburn, Henderson, NW. Highway, Royal Ln., Beltline, and Cotton Belt Junction; and not effect the ridership at the existing stations. Adding stations would make the DART train more accessible to more pedestrians along the entire line, and would make it more urban.

But train stations cost money to build and maintain. They also slow the average speed of the trains down. An hour commute from the outer burbs will turn into a 90 minute commute. Occasionally I read at these forums that DART should build express tracks and run express trains skipping every other station - what they do not realize is that is what DART runs already by not building every other station.

User avatar
tamtagon
Site Admin
Posts: 1743
Joined: 16 Oct 2016 12:04

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tamtagon » 27 Dec 2019 09:58

electricron wrote:Let's just look at the Red Line for simplicity sake to verify my point of view. One could add stations at: RL Thorton, S. Lamar, Blackburn, Henderson, NW. Highway, Royal Ln., Beltline, and Cotton Belt Junction; and not effect the ridership at the existing stations. Adding stations would make the DART train more accessible to more pedestrians along the entire line, and would make it more urban.

But train stations cost money to build and maintain. They also slow the average speed of the trains down. An hour commute from the outer burbs will turn into a 90 minute commute. Occasionally I read at these forums that DART should build express tracks and run express trains skipping every other station - what they do not realize is that is what DART runs already by not building every other station.


Interesting and provocative observations! I like that alot, though I might change the phrasing or context, that maybe calling today's express track operation implies far more long range planning than DART deserves. DART has ended up operating express trains that skip unbuilt stations....

This way of looking at it certainly updates the way I think about rail commuting from Collin County... instead of adding leap-frog infrastructure along the way, DART & NCTCOG & TxDOT should simple build the light rail stations (e.g. RL Thorton, S. Lamar, Blackburn, Henderson, NW. Highway, Royal Ln., Beltline, and Cotton Belt Junction) AND and an entirely new rail line specifically for longer trips, more than 30 minutes.

This would complete the mission of the Light Rail by turning the main lines into functional urban segments with the addition of many stations, while strategic stations are super-sized like Mockingbird and Cotton Belt junction. Get on the commuter rail in downtown Plano with two stops on the way to downtown Dallas. If you're in Plano and are going to Dallas for the shopping, take the express train to Mockingbird Station go from there --- NoMo train stations serving the shopping anchored by NorthPark, and SoMo train stations anchored by Uptown....

That really fills in the holes in the notion of building leap-frog capability into the existing system. The existing system needs twice as many stations allowing the development of Urban Segments, and the general routes need and entire new system!

lakewoodhobo
Posts: 1064
Joined: 20 Oct 2016 13:49
Location: Elmwood, Oak Cliff

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby lakewoodhobo » 21 Jan 2020 22:10

DART Unveils Plans for New Dallas Subway to City Council
https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/dart- ... l/2296017/

User avatar
Cbdallas
Posts: 410
Joined: 29 Nov 2016 16:42

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Cbdallas » 22 Jan 2020 13:28

God Speed DART.

User avatar
TNWE
Posts: 195
Joined: 03 May 2017 09:42

Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby TNWE » 24 Jan 2020 13:26

tamtagon wrote:
electricron wrote:Let's just look at the Red Line for simplicity sake to verify my point of view. One could add stations at: RL Thorton, S. Lamar, Blackburn, Henderson, NW. Highway, Royal Ln., Beltline, and Cotton Belt Junction; and not effect the ridership at the existing stations. Adding stations would make the DART train more accessible to more pedestrians along the entire line, and would make it more urban.

But train stations cost money to build and maintain. They also slow the average speed of the trains down. An hour commute from the outer burbs will turn into a 90 minute commute. Occasionally I read at these forums that DART should build express tracks and run express trains skipping every other station - what they do not realize is that is what DART runs already by not building every other station.


Interesting and provocative observations! I like that alot, though I might change the phrasing or context, that maybe calling today's express track operation implies far more long range planning than DART deserves. DART has ended up operating express trains that skip unbuilt stations....

This way of looking at it certainly updates the way I think about rail commuting from Collin County... instead of adding leap-frog infrastructure along the way, DART & NCTCOG & TxDOT should simple build the light rail stations (e.g. RL Thorton, S. Lamar, Blackburn, Henderson, NW. Highway, Royal Ln., Beltline, and Cotton Belt Junction) AND and an entirely new rail line specifically for longer trips, more than 30 minutes.

This would complete the mission of the Light Rail by turning the main lines into functional urban segments with the addition of many stations, while strategic stations are super-sized like Mockingbird and Cotton Belt junction. Get on the commuter rail in downtown Plano with two stops on the way to downtown Dallas. If you're in Plano and are going to Dallas for the shopping, take the express train to Mockingbird Station go from there --- NoMo train stations serving the shopping anchored by NorthPark, and SoMo train stations anchored by Uptown....

That really fills in the holes in the notion of building leap-frog capability into the existing system. The existing system needs twice as many stations allowing the development of Urban Segments, and the general routes need and entire new system!


I don't think there's a need (or the ROI) to build a second track alignment. Just add turnouts to a second pair of tracks and platforms outside the main track for all the "infill" stations and let the express trains pass using the center tracks while local trains are loading/unloading passengers. The local platforms could also be shorter, with the local lines served by a 1 or 2 SLRV train that shuttles back and forth (say from Mockingbird to PGBT), while the express trains could use a new, 100% low floor, walk-through train design that's the same length as 3 SLRVs, but is more akin to a subway that makes better use of the full platform length (as it is, the cabs & couplers in the middle of a 2 or 3 car train take up a good chunk of the platform length that could otherwise be usable passenger space, especially on rush-hour trains).

The Mockingbird trench would need to be expanded to add a 3rd track like Bachman, but that's a lot cheaper than acquiring land, digging another tunnel, etc for a dedicated express line.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Login