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DART D2 Subway

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 07 Nov 2019 13:07

^ The Lizard Lounge owners have already purchased the It'll Do Club for their backup plan.

cowboyeagle05
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 07 Nov 2019 13:32

That's a step down in size even though good shows happen at It'll Do all the time. I imagine they are still looking at where their next location will be but they are currently grandfathered in at Lizard's current abode so anything new will require some new service expectations.
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bachmanlad
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby bachmanlad » 18 Nov 2019 23:24

Nov. 13 D2 meeting recap:

Metro Center Station:
The exits on Elm have been eliminated. The only ones left are the ones at West TC, in Rosa Parks Plaza, and across Griffin from West TC. The headhouses (aboveground structures) are now much bigger as well. I heard someone ask about possible connections to the pedestrian tunnels, and the answer was a pretty firm 'no,' citing security concerns on behalf of the building owners and the difficulty of funneling all the entrances through turnstiles.

Commerce Street Station:
Shifted entirely about a block to the west. The number of exits has also been reduced from the previous four to two: Pegasus Plaza and the SW corner of Commerce and Ervay. The main entrance is now in Pegasus Plaza, taking up a significant portion of it. The exit that was in the currently fenced-off little pocket east of AT&T has been downgraded to a ventilation shaft.

CBD East Station:
There is now (finally) a preliminary design for CBD East Station. Like the new Metro Center design, it will have large headhouses - one on the SE corner of Elm and Pearl and a smaller one on the SE corner of Pearl and Main.

East tunnel opening:
DART is trying to find a developer willing to build something straddling the tunnel opening, "making it a part of the urban fabric/so that you'll never know it's there."

Deep Ellum/Live Oak Station:
Seems pretty certain now. It's being moved from Good Latimer at Swiss to Good Latimer at Live Oak.

Also interesting:
DART is considering redesigning the East TC or getting rid of it completely. I asked, and they said they are considering opening it to development and building a new bus TC on the bottom of the new development or just selling it outright.

Edit 1: typo. Edit 2: whoops, forgot to link the PowerPoint.
https://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/about/ex ... 3nov19.pdf
Last edited by bachmanlad on 19 Nov 2019 11:32, edited 2 times in total.

DPatel304
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby DPatel304 » 19 Nov 2019 10:44

Thanks for the recap! I'm a very visual person, so it's a little tricky for me to picture some of the proposed stations, but I'm glad to hear the Deep Ellum station isn't disappearing. I'm wondering why they chose to reduce the number of exits for a couple of the stations though, that seems like a step back.

bachmanlad wrote:Also interesting:
DART is considering redesigning the East TC or getting rid of it completely. I asked, and they said they are considering opening it to development and building a new bus TC on the bottom of the new development or just selling it outright.


What a pleasant surprise! Whenever I'm in the area, I always think that land could be put to better use. I'm not expecting anything anytime soon, but glad they are considering other options.
Last edited by DPatel304 on 19 Nov 2019 11:10, edited 1 time in total.

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THRILLHO
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby THRILLHO » 19 Nov 2019 11:08

A shame about the Deep Ellum station, but otherwise all very exciting stuff.
Maybe losing the Deep Ellum station would be an incentive for us to get a streetcar line running the length of Main st? Now that I’m thinking about it, I can envision an ART line that connects the Smart/Convention Center/City Hall area to Pegasus Plaza and on to Deep Ellum.

DPatel304 wrote:Thanks for the recap! I'm a very visual person, so it's a little tricky for me to picture some of the proposed stations, but I'm glad to hear the Deep Ellum station isn't disappearing. I'm wondering why they chose to reduce the number of exits for a couple of the stations though, that seems like a step back.

The presentation slides have a bunch of great visuals:
https://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/about/expansion/d2/D2PublicMeeting13nov19.pdf

The Deep Ellum station isn't disappearing but it still kind of feels like it is ahah. Better than no station at all but it's getting scooted far enough up that it doesn't realistically serve as a rail stop for Deep Ellum anymore. From the new spot it's a solid 10 to 15 minute walk into Deep Ellum depending on where you're going. If this is what has to happen then that's fine, but it's still kind of a bummer to me.

-----

Also, I didn’t realize what a large structure they had planned for the Metro center station.
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DPatel304
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby DPatel304 » 19 Nov 2019 16:01

THRILLHO wrote:The Deep Ellum station isn't disappearing but it still kind of feels like it is ahah. Better than no station at all but it's getting scooted far enough up that it doesn't realistically serve as a rail stop for Deep Ellum anymore. From the new spot it's a solid 10 to 15 minute walk into Deep Ellum depending on where you're going. If this is what has to happen then that's fine, but it's still kind of a bummer to me.


Thanks for the link to the presentation! Originally I know they were planning on getting rid of the station completely, so I'm glad that is no longer the case.

Also, you still have the Baylor station which has always been more convenient to Deep Ellum, IMO.

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bachmanlad
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby bachmanlad » 19 Nov 2019 18:40

DPatel304 wrote:I'm wondering why they chose to reduce the number of exits for a couple of the stations though, that seems like a step back.

THRILLHO wrote:Also, I didn’t realize what a large structure they had planned for the Metro center station.

1) I'm thinking the exits at the south end of Metro Center may have been scratched because of some complication caused by the existing tunnels there.
2) Maybe they ran the numbers, decided that having as many exits as they had was too expensive, and had to scale back.
3) Judging by the presentation, it seems like they wanted to focus on having a few large, prominent, naturally lit exits rather than a bunch of more convenient but smaller and less visible ones. Typical DART thinking, putting form over function to attract so-called "choice riders".

I very much agree it's a step backward. The smaller and more accessible the stations are, the better they will integrate with the urban fabric and the more they will be used. In the cities with the biggest subway systems, entrances are either directly integrated into development or hardly more than an escalator from the sidewalk to the platform. The kind of advertisement DART wants to do here is misguided - if people think the convenience of taking the train rivals the convenience of their cars (or Ubers), they will choose the train, and if they don't, they won't. Nothing else matters, and anything more is just taking up space that would be better used as parkland or other development. To that end, DART should be trying to eliminate at-grade street crossings and reduce walks through station concourses wherever possible, not trying to turn the subway into a "destination" or an "experience".

DPatel304 wrote:Whenever I'm in the area, I always think that land could be put to better use.

Really, though. It's like it was designed to be as space-sucking and useless as possible. I'd rant about it here, but it's probably worthy of its own thread on the bus boards.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 19 Nov 2019 20:23

The city needs to put its foot down and say "Hell No" to closing all those streets around the Good Latimer station.

It's bad enough that DART already replaced two grade-separated intersections with traffic signals, blocked off multiple streets including Swiss Avenue and Race Street, regularly block access to a fire station and a level one trauma center for minutes at a time and turned eastbound Main Street into a joke. And now they want to double down on it with all these other street closures?

Dumb asses.

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muncien
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby muncien » 20 Nov 2019 09:44

bachmanlad wrote:
DPatel304 wrote:I'm wondering why they chose to reduce the number of exits for a couple of the stations though, that seems like a step back.

THRILLHO wrote:Also, I didn’t realize what a large structure they had planned for the Metro center station.

1) I'm thinking the exits at the south end of Metro Center may have been scratched because of some complication caused by the existing tunnels there.
2) Maybe they ran the numbers, decided that having as many exits as they had was too expensive, and had to scale back.
3) Judging by the presentation, it seems like they wanted to focus on having a few large, prominent, naturally lit exits rather than a bunch of more convenient but smaller and less visible ones. Typical DART thinking, putting form over function to attract so-called "choice riders".

I very much agree it's a step backward. The smaller and more accessible the stations are, the better they will integrate with the urban fabric and the more they will be used. In the cities with the biggest subway systems, entrances are either directly integrated into development or hardly more than an escalator from the sidewalk to the platform. The kind of advertisement DART wants to do here is misguided - if people think the convenience of taking the train rivals the convenience of their cars (or Ubers), they will choose the train, and if they don't, they won't. Nothing else matters, and anything more is just taking up space that would be better used as parkland or other development. To that end, DART should be trying to eliminate at-grade street crossings and reduce walks through station concourses wherever possible, not trying to turn the subway into a "destination" or an "experience".

DPatel304 wrote:Whenever I'm in the area, I always think that land could be put to better use.

Really, though. It's like it was designed to be as space-sucking and useless as possible. I'd rant about it here, but it's probably worthy of its own thread on the bus boards.


^^^
Couldn't have said it better. Typical DART fashion to overbuild EVERYTHING for the sake of form over function. My rants against D2 over the years don't need to be regurgitated. The one small opportunity to make something of it was by peppering small entrances throughout the city core to at least give the impression that more people could be served. And now we see that even that has been screwed up. But hey, at least we have a 'subway' like the big city folks. smh
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THRILLHO
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby THRILLHO » 20 Nov 2019 17:06

I'm curious to see how the west portal will impact the viability of future development on this parking lot. Doesn't seem very appealing to have a development flanked by a freeway on one side, an exit ramp on another, and this rather lengthy impassable portal on another. I would not be surprised if this ends up being the last undeveloped lot in the loop.
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dzh
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby dzh » 21 Nov 2019 08:18

I really think D2 is a total mess with this portal system and it's Victory Park route. We need D2 badly, but part of me wonders if it's worth it if it get poorly constructed. This west portal goes right through the recently purchased South Asian Museum land, and then the east portal is a mess when it comes to right aways. They need to figure out a better area to get these tunnel portals built.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby northsouth » 08 Dec 2019 18:30

Interesting tidbit from the latest DART board presentation on D2. The plan for light rail lines downtown from 1988 had the Red and Blue lines running as a subway underneath State St in Uptown, Pearl St, and Pacific Ave before returning to the surface west of Houston St. Stations were between Routh and Fairmount on State, at Ross and Pearl, at Ervay and Pacific (the station shell dug out as part of the construction of 1700 Pacific), at Griffin as the transfer to the Green line, and Union Station.

It also shows a subway alignment for the Green line, going underground north of Woodall Rodgers, then traveling under Griffin, then Marilla before heading north under Good-Latimer to what was previously planned as the eastern D2 junction north of Elm, after which it would presumably surface near Malcolm X. Stations are south of Woodall Rodgers in the parking lots between the old and new segments of Griffin, the transfer to the Red and Blue Lines (Metro Center under the current plan), at City Hall (also where a space was dug out for a station during construction decades ago), and between Harwood and Pearl by the Farmers Market. This is as far as I know the oldest version of D2 as we know it (there's a map that seems to be associated with the original 1983 proposal with a ton of lines that shows several surface and subway downtown alignments, but I don't consider it similar enough to count). The plan for the second line downtown put on hold until the planning for the Green line around 2003 or so, at which point it was again deferred, next appearing in the 2030 Service Plan of 2006 as an independent project to be built after the Green and Orange lines; the D2 project as it came to be called has been debated and planned and deferred on and off ever since.
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 09 Dec 2019 12:42

northsouth wrote:Interesting tidbit from the latest DART board presentation on D2. The plan for light rail lines downtown from 1988......

It had to take you time to find such an old map, thanks of the effort. But it is a planner's map before those little and large pesky details get in the way. There were probably other maps of alternate routes from way back then - this is probably one of many. The lines in this old map do not allow the sharing of rolling stock from one line to another is probably the largest pesky detail operators want that planners often ignore initially. Then politics from stakeholders along the route have their say, and before long what you end up getting looks nothing at all what they initially started with. That's life.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby xen0blue » 17 Dec 2019 10:44

Only 3 underground stations?? What's even the point

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 26 Dec 2019 07:38

xen0blue wrote:Only 3 underground stations?? What's even the point

Is there a must have need for more? Have you priced the costs to build and maintain a subway station?
Since the very first alternate proposals with the EIS planning process, the subway build has always had fewer stations than a surface build. Yet, the city council has always pushed for the subway alternate.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 26 Dec 2019 10:06

DART is Light Rail and while I generally support a below-grade option I prefer it with the right tech and DART isn't ready to change its operation around different technology yet. The one thing I constantly explain to transplants is why DART isn't like some of the bigger city transits they are used to. Light Rail and Heavy Rail are different and people have to accept that DART was built for the burbs, not urban Dallas. What the Dallas City council really was doing was trying to wield some strength against the wrong problem. The real problem is that our Rail system is geared towards Planoites getting into the city and back again at rush hour. It's not designed or useful for inner-city back and forth.
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 27 Dec 2019 08:20

cowboyeagle05 wrote:DART is Light Rail and while I generally support a below-grade option I prefer it with the right tech and DART isn't ready to change its operation around different technology yet. The one thing I constantly explain to transplants is why DART isn't like some of the bigger city transits they are used to. Light Rail and Heavy Rail are different and people have to accept that DART was built for the burbs, not urban Dallas. What the Dallas City council really was doing was trying to wield some strength against the wrong problem. The real problem is that our Rail system is geared towards Planoites getting into the city and back again at rush hour. It's not designed or useful for inner-city back and forth.

I'm going to disagree with you on the cause. It is not the technology being used as much as the spacing between stations that make DART geared more suburban than urban. That can be fixed just by adding stations on all the existing lines.

Let's just look at the Red Line for simplicity sake to verify my point of view. One could add stations at;
RL Thorton, S. Lamar, Blackburn, Henderson, NW. Highway, Royal Ln., Beltline, and Cotton Belt Junction; and not effect the ridership at the existing stations. Adding stations would make the DART train more accessible to more pedestrians along the entire line, and would make it more urban.

But train stations cost money to build and maintain. They also slow the average speed of the trains down. An hour commute from the outer burbs will turn into a 90 minute commute. Occasionally I read at these forums that DART should build express tracks and run express trains skipping every other station - what they do not realize is that is what DART runs already by not building every other station.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tamtagon » 27 Dec 2019 09:58

electricron wrote:Let's just look at the Red Line for simplicity sake to verify my point of view. One could add stations at: RL Thorton, S. Lamar, Blackburn, Henderson, NW. Highway, Royal Ln., Beltline, and Cotton Belt Junction; and not effect the ridership at the existing stations. Adding stations would make the DART train more accessible to more pedestrians along the entire line, and would make it more urban.

But train stations cost money to build and maintain. They also slow the average speed of the trains down. An hour commute from the outer burbs will turn into a 90 minute commute. Occasionally I read at these forums that DART should build express tracks and run express trains skipping every other station - what they do not realize is that is what DART runs already by not building every other station.


Interesting and provocative observations! I like that alot, though I might change the phrasing or context, that maybe calling today's express track operation implies far more long range planning than DART deserves. DART has ended up operating express trains that skip unbuilt stations....

This way of looking at it certainly updates the way I think about rail commuting from Collin County... instead of adding leap-frog infrastructure along the way, DART & NCTCOG & TxDOT should simple build the light rail stations (e.g. RL Thorton, S. Lamar, Blackburn, Henderson, NW. Highway, Royal Ln., Beltline, and Cotton Belt Junction) AND and an entirely new rail line specifically for longer trips, more than 30 minutes.

This would complete the mission of the Light Rail by turning the main lines into functional urban segments with the addition of many stations, while strategic stations are super-sized like Mockingbird and Cotton Belt junction. Get on the commuter rail in downtown Plano with two stops on the way to downtown Dallas. If you're in Plano and are going to Dallas for the shopping, take the express train to Mockingbird Station go from there --- NoMo train stations serving the shopping anchored by NorthPark, and SoMo train stations anchored by Uptown....

That really fills in the holes in the notion of building leap-frog capability into the existing system. The existing system needs twice as many stations allowing the development of Urban Segments, and the general routes need and entire new system!

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby lakewoodhobo » 21 Jan 2020 22:10

DART Unveils Plans for New Dallas Subway to City Council
https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/dart- ... l/2296017/

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Cbdallas » 22 Jan 2020 13:28

God Speed DART.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby TNWE » 24 Jan 2020 13:26

tamtagon wrote:
electricron wrote:Let's just look at the Red Line for simplicity sake to verify my point of view. One could add stations at: RL Thorton, S. Lamar, Blackburn, Henderson, NW. Highway, Royal Ln., Beltline, and Cotton Belt Junction; and not effect the ridership at the existing stations. Adding stations would make the DART train more accessible to more pedestrians along the entire line, and would make it more urban.

But train stations cost money to build and maintain. They also slow the average speed of the trains down. An hour commute from the outer burbs will turn into a 90 minute commute. Occasionally I read at these forums that DART should build express tracks and run express trains skipping every other station - what they do not realize is that is what DART runs already by not building every other station.


Interesting and provocative observations! I like that alot, though I might change the phrasing or context, that maybe calling today's express track operation implies far more long range planning than DART deserves. DART has ended up operating express trains that skip unbuilt stations....

This way of looking at it certainly updates the way I think about rail commuting from Collin County... instead of adding leap-frog infrastructure along the way, DART & NCTCOG & TxDOT should simple build the light rail stations (e.g. RL Thorton, S. Lamar, Blackburn, Henderson, NW. Highway, Royal Ln., Beltline, and Cotton Belt Junction) AND and an entirely new rail line specifically for longer trips, more than 30 minutes.

This would complete the mission of the Light Rail by turning the main lines into functional urban segments with the addition of many stations, while strategic stations are super-sized like Mockingbird and Cotton Belt junction. Get on the commuter rail in downtown Plano with two stops on the way to downtown Dallas. If you're in Plano and are going to Dallas for the shopping, take the express train to Mockingbird Station go from there --- NoMo train stations serving the shopping anchored by NorthPark, and SoMo train stations anchored by Uptown....

That really fills in the holes in the notion of building leap-frog capability into the existing system. The existing system needs twice as many stations allowing the development of Urban Segments, and the general routes need and entire new system!


I don't think there's a need (or the ROI) to build a second track alignment. Just add turnouts to a second pair of tracks and platforms outside the main track for all the "infill" stations and let the express trains pass using the center tracks while local trains are loading/unloading passengers. The local platforms could also be shorter, with the local lines served by a 1 or 2 SLRV train that shuttles back and forth (say from Mockingbird to PGBT), while the express trains could use a new, 100% low floor, walk-through train design that's the same length as 3 SLRVs, but is more akin to a subway that makes better use of the full platform length (as it is, the cabs & couplers in the middle of a 2 or 3 car train take up a good chunk of the platform length that could otherwise be usable passenger space, especially on rush-hour trains).

The Mockingbird trench would need to be expanded to add a 3rd track like Bachman, but that's a lot cheaper than acquiring land, digging another tunnel, etc for a dedicated express line.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Parker Road » 25 Jan 2020 20:31

Not to mention the fact that, aside from the TODs that have been purposely built up around existing stations, the existing DART lines don't pass many neighborhoods that would be conducive to transit anyway. For example, the only exception I can think of on the Red Line, within the city proper, is Knox-Henderson, and we all know what's going on there. At this point DART should embrace the existing lines as a primarily commuter service, leaving the inner city service to Jarrett Walker's bus system redesign or some other new mode. Not too many opportunities for hyperlocal stops when you build on abandoned freight ROW.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 25 Jan 2020 23:43

Parker Road wrote:Not to mention the fact that, aside from the TODs that have been purposely built up around existing stations, the existing DART lines don't pass many neighborhoods that would be conducive to transit anyway. For example, the only exception I can think of on the Red Line, within the city proper, is Knox-Henderson, and we all know what's going on there. At this point DART should embrace the existing lines as a primarily commuter service, leaving the inner city service to Jarrett Walker's bus system redesign or some other new mode. Not too many opportunities for hyperlocal stops when you build on abandoned freight ROW.

I'll agree. Which is why so many of DART's light rail stations have parking lots.

I'll repeat again, to properly implement express train services more than two tracks are needed in the railroad corridor. Especially after the various lines merge together. Outside where the lines merge, well placed passing sidings might work whether at or between stations. But these passing sidings will only work if the additional tracks and station platforms are installed inside where the lines merge. And that means triple or quadruple tracks under North Central Expressway, over the Trinity River Bridge, through Parkland's Hospital District, and through downtown Dallas on both D1 and D2. If you do not, the trains will run very slowly at approach medium speeds because of the limited signal blocks ahead being occupied by an earlier train.

Some may suggest DART runs 4 lines through the downtown Dallas street mall now, and I'll reply at slow medium approach speeds. I'm sure you do not wish to see those slow speeds all the way between where all the lines merge (Bachman Lake, 8th & Corinth, and Mockingbird Lane.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tamtagon » 26 Jan 2020 09:41

electricron wrote:... to properly implement express train services more than two tracks are needed in the railroad corridor. Especially after the various lines merge together. Outside where the lines merge, well placed passing sidings might work whether at or between stations. But these passing sidings will only work if the additional tracks and station platforms are installed inside where the lines merge. And that means triple or quadruple tracks under North Central Expressway, over the Trinity River Bridge, through Parkland's Hospital District, and through downtown Dallas on both D1 and D2.


It'll seem expensive, but it's necessary for the system to really work. D2 should be constructed a cornerstone of LRT expansion to support significantly increased population density between SMU and The Dallas Zoo, University of Dallas and Bonton.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Parker Road » 26 Jan 2020 14:57

The only reason DART should ever consider adding express tracks is if each line's frequency was so high that interlining isn't otherwise possible. Because the light rail system was built in a commuter-oriented model, I don't ever foresee frequencies getting that high, even after D2. The system uses light rail vehicles butthe service patterns mirror LIRR/Metro North/SEPTA regional rail more closely than their urban counterparts, and I'd much rather see DART invest in frequent service in the city center instead.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 26 Jan 2020 21:23

Parker Road wrote:...I'd much rather see DART invest in frequent service in the city center instead.


in·vest
/inˈvest/
verb
1.
expend money with the expectation of achieving a profit or material result by putting it into financial schemes, shares, or property, or by using it to develop a commercial venture.
"the company is to invest $12 million in its new manufacturing site"


DART does not invest money. DART spends money. Nothing it does has any expectation of achieving a profit. Example: DART is currently paying $30 million per year in interest on money it has borrowed for the silver line, which their own projections say will only generate $3 million per year in fares.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Parker Road » 26 Jan 2020 22:21

DART does not invest money. DART spends money. Nothing it does has any expectation of achieving a profit. Example: DART is currently paying $30 million per year in interest on money it has borrowed for the silver line, which their own projections say will only generate $3 million per year in fares.

...okay. I'd much rather see DART spend money for frequent service in the city center instead, getting enriched core neighborhoods with dependable transit in return. Better? :D

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Cbdallas » 27 Mar 2020 15:46

Ran across this with all my spare time.

https://www.masstransitmag.com/rail/veh ... -milestone

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 28 Mar 2020 01:48

Hannibal Lecter wrote:DART does not invest money. DART spends money. Nothing it does has any expectation of achieving a profit. Example: DART is currently paying $30 million per year in interest on money it has borrowed for the silver line, which their own projections say will only generate $3 million per year in fares.

DART is also spending $162 million per year in interest for the existing light rail and bus services, where fares generate $76 million per year. So what is so new with the silver line? A 10 to 1 ratio is par for DART.
https://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/debtdocu ... sept18.pdf
From 2018
Operating Expenses $779.2 million,
Operating Revenues (Fares) $76.1 million,
Interest Expenses $162.5 million

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 28 Mar 2020 18:43

God save the lizard lounge.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 30 Mar 2020 17:19

The Lizard lounge knows it's on its way out which is why its owner is off buying other clubs.
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 30 Mar 2020 17:22

Hannibal Lecter wrote:
DART does not invest money. DART spends money. Nothing it does has any expectation of achieving a profit. Example: DART is currently paying $30 million per year in interest on money it has borrowed for the silver line, which their own projections say will only generate $3 million per year in fares.


How much profit does the freeway system directly generate again?
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 30 Mar 2020 17:45

cowboyeagle05 wrote:How much profit does the freeway system directly generate again?


Just under a billion dollars a year.

That's the amount diverted by the state from fuel tax revenues for other purposes. Most of it, 25% of total fuel tax collections, goes to school funding. More information at http://bettertexasblog.org/2015/01/wher ... ne-tax-go/.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby TNWE » 31 Mar 2020 14:47

Both transit and cars/roads suffer from a free rider problem (both literally and figuratively, lol). Declaring one mode superior to the other because of a particular financial metric is silly.

The anti-car partisans have largely made choices that minimize the necessity of owning a car in their personal lives, so they're naturally inclined to think that any public money spent on roads is wasteful. But if Royal Blue grocery and every other walkable downtown establishment had to tack on a carbon/congestion/road use surcharge to reflect the "true" cost of receiving their products via truck, the anti-car crowd might change their tune.

Similarly, if the anti-transit crowd had their way and got a penny in sales tax back by dissolving DART, they'd suddenly have to contend with even more traffic. DART ridership may seem low, but there are like 200 people on each rush-hour Red Line train from Parker Road - that's 200 more cars on 75 South every 15 minutes for 2 hours - that's on top of an already congested road system.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 31 Mar 2020 16:59

TNWE wrote:Similarly, if the anti-transit crowd had their way and got a penny in sales tax back by dissolving DART, they'd suddenly have to contend with even more traffic. DART ridership may seem low, but there are like 200 people on each rush-hour Red Line train from Parker Road - that's 200 more cars on 75 South every 15 minutes for 2 hours - that's on top of an already congested road system.


Most of you are probably too young to remember this, but around 1981 Dallas Transit System drivers held a wildcat strike for higher wages. They claimed that gridlock would bring the city to its knees. The reality: Nobody noticed. Traffic was unaffected. Confronted with their failure the drivers returned to their jobs within a few days. Note that at that time DTS, which served only the city of Dallas, carried a much higher percentage of Dallas commuters than it does now. In fact, DTS daily ridership was almost as high as DART's now, even though DART's service area includes millions more people.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tucy » 01 Apr 2020 15:07

TNWE wrote:Similarly, if the anti-transit crowd had their way and got a penny in sales tax back by dissolving DART, they'd suddenly have to contend with even more traffic. DART ridership may seem low, but there are like 200 people on each rush-hour Red Line train from Parker Road - that's 200 more cars on 75 South every 15 minutes for 2 hours - that's on top of an already congested road system.


Even if there would be 200 more cars on 75 South every 15 minutes for 2 hours every workday, that would probably be a barely noticeable increase in traffic. DART's ridership is a woefully insignificant portion of our daily commute (as mentioned by Hannibal, above).

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby jeffbrown2002 » 07 Apr 2020 03:09

Hannibal Lecter wrote:Most of you are probably too young to remember this, but around 1981 Dallas Transit System drivers held a wildcat strike for higher wages. They claimed that gridlock would bring the city to its knees. The reality: Nobody noticed. Traffic was unaffected. Confronted with their failure the drivers returned to their jobs within a few days. Note that at that time DTS, which served only the city of Dallas, carried a much higher percentage of Dallas commuters than it does now. In fact, DTS daily ridership was almost as high as DART's now, even though DART's service area includes millions more people.


The city’s wealthy and middle class may not have noticed or cared, but I can guarantee the city’s working poor noticed. These people don’t have the means to purchase a personal automobile and rely on public transportation to get around the city. They don’t have a choice between taking their car or the bus.
This population is seldom (really never) mentioned and are often forgotten, but it is they who are most affected when agencies such as DART shut down. Public transportation is a public service, it’s not meant to generate a profit. DART is far from perfect and indeed deserves much criticism and is in desperate need of improvement in many areas (especially in serving these poorer neighborhoods) but folding it altogether would be a monumental mistake, devastating communities of low-socioeconomic status as well as taking away the region's currently best solution at mitigating perpetual gridlock.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby mdg109 » 07 Apr 2020 14:30

That's a good point. And it's not just the initial expense of purchasing the car, you also have maintenance, gas, insurance, etc.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 08 Apr 2020 09:29

mdg109 wrote:That's a good point. And it's not just the initial expense of purchasing the car, you also have maintenance, gas, insurance, etc.

All true! The key point being that individuals pay 100% of the cost of owning, running, and maintaining the vehicle.
I suggest public transit would be almost as expensive if riders were paying 100% of the costs of owning, running, and maintaining the transit system individually. That means higher fares - 5 to 10 times higher.
We pay collectively today with DART, with a penny sales tax on everything bought in local stores, whether we use the public transit system or not. Hundreds of millions of dollars are collected from people who never ride DART buses or trains every year. That's why riders of DART buses and trains see a 80%-90% discount on every ride.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby dzh » 05 May 2020 16:42

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/coronavirus/covid-19-may-force-dart-to-delay-downtown-subway-by-15-years/2361863/

Anyone know more about this? A 15 year delay beyond the 2025 completion date for D2 sounds incredibly brutal.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 05 May 2020 18:19

Might as well not build anything. By 2040 there will be hyperloop transit lol

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby texasstar » 06 May 2020 13:38

I am facing the grim realization that I will probably not live long enough to see this built.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 08 May 2020 10:02

Honestly its what DART wanted. They wanted the Cotton Belt first and this just gave them the reason to push off D2 fully. Keeping in mind D2 original version could have been far enough along that they couldn't delay it but people did push for a better subway option which restarted the process.

I'd say focus on major bus overhalls and streetcar improvements and expansion.
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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Parker Road » 08 May 2020 17:08

I'd say focus on major bus overhalls and streetcar improvements and expansion.

Yep—that avenue makes the most sense for the way Dallas' transit is currently organized. Bringing more local service to DART's existing regional stations in the city core would do much more for ridership than adding more regional stations without enhancing local connectivity. DART service is so limited because even in the city there are often few frequent local connection opportunities, therefore effectively stranding riders within a short distance of the station. Adding more connections can take riders more places than adding some extra regional stations in the city. I'm not against D2 at all, but I've come to realize it's a "regional" fix for a "local" problem.

Might as well not build anything. By 2040 there will be hyperloop transit lol

Not sure if you're being serious at all, but the use cases between a hypothetical hyperloop and those of local (i.e. within downtown) transit would be pretty much mutually exclusive. Technology doesn't erase the geospatial principles of good transit planning.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby TNWE » 13 May 2020 14:14

Parker Road wrote: I'm not against D2 at all, but I've come to realize it's a "regional" fix for a "local" problem.


It's not even a *good* fix for the regional problem. The underlying motivation for D2 is that they can't add any more trains on any line because the current transit mall has capacity for 4 lines each at a 15 minute headway. The reason DART needs to add capacity is packed rush-period trains on the Red and Orange line between Downtown <-> Parker Road and the Green Line between Downtown <-> North Carrollton. With the current design, every train into downtown must exit the opposite side, so every additional AM train you add to handle Parker Road <-> Downtown crowds will run largely empty from Downtown <-> Westmoreland as it's going against the flow of commuters. Leaving aside track capacity issues, that's a hugely wasteful use of rolling stock and train operators.

The better solution would be to build underground terminus stations at the East and West Transit Centers (with accommodation for thru-running in the future) and have additional rush-hour trains from the Northwest and North Central lines terminate at those respective stations, then turn back to make additional rush-hour runs. Existing bus services or a future streetcar could connect both of those termini to the general vicinity of the Commerce Street station/Discovery District for far cheaper than the central tunnel section between Metro center and East TC, and when there's sufficient demand for more service outside of rush hour both north and south of downtown, DART can complete that central section and start running thru trains.

Recall that the original D2 plan had a tunnel branch east of Metro Center leading to a station at the Convention center that would have served this exact purpose, but idiots on here and at the public meetings acted like it was the dumbest idea DART ever had because "the tunnel doesn't go anywhere!!!" and DART staff didn't care enough to explain or defend the value of a terminus station to people who've never given even a moment's thought to how a train system operates (hint- trains can and do terminate in the middle of downtowns all over the world).

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby tamtagon » 13 May 2020 14:25

I think the state is being derelict by not putting a billion dollars into the second downtown route.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 13 May 2020 22:02

Austin's new plan for their metro looks like they're doubling down on downtown.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby electricron » 14 May 2020 00:07

tamtagon wrote:I think the state is being derelict by not putting a billion dollars into the second downtown route.

Every penny DART collects in sales taxes cycles through the State of Texas. The State in the next legislature could null DART's ability to collect any sales taxes. All it would take is a bill passing through the legislature with the governor's signature changing the Texas Transportation Code.
I'm not suggesting that would happen, just that it could happen. So, in a round-a-bout way, Texas funds DART to a tune over $500 million each and every year. Well, maybe not this year with the human malware affecting sales tax revenues.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby Parker Road » 14 May 2020 08:48

With the current design, every train into downtown must exit the opposite side, so every additional AM train you add to handle Parker Road <-> Downtown crowds will run largely empty from Downtown <-> Westmoreland as it's going against the flow of commuters. Leaving aside track capacity issues, that's a hugely wasteful use of rolling stock and train operators. ... The better solution would be to build underground terminus stations at the East and West Transit Centers (with accommodation for thru-running in the future) and have additional rush-hour trains from the Northwest and North Central lines terminate at those respective stations, then turn back to make additional rush-hour runs.


Maybe I'm not thinking this through, but couldn't this be addressed by running inbound North Central trains through downtown and outbound along the Northwest corridor and vice versa (basically what the Orange line does)? Your idea still involves trains going against the commuter patterns, they're just going outbound back toward their origin rather than outbound in the opposite direction of downtown. It makes sense as a stopgap/first phase of D2 that increases capacity on the system's "spokes" while the middle bits are being constructed, but other than cost I don't see why terminating trains downtown would be a better measure than throughrunning, particularly when the highly trafficked corridors you mentioned enter the downtown transit mall on opposite sides.

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Re: DART D2 Subway

Postby muncien » 14 May 2020 08:49

TNWE wrote:
Parker Road wrote: I'm not against D2 at all, but I've come to realize it's a "regional" fix for a "local" problem.


...
Recall that the original D2 plan had a tunnel branch east of Metro Center leading to a station at the Convention center that would have served this exact purpose, but idiots on here and at the public meetings acted like it was the dumbest idea DART ever had because "the tunnel doesn't go anywhere!!!" and DART staff didn't care enough to explain or defend the value of a terminus station to people who've never given even a moment's thought to how a train system operates (hint- trains can and do terminate in the middle of downtowns all over the world).


While I am not generally opposed to the idea of having terminus stations in downtown, I was vehemently opposed to DART's D2 terminus proposal. Having lived in Europe for years and utilized countless such stations, they are typically at the HUB of the city core and that is where most get on and off to access the city. They are beneficial in the fact that you have less pressure to find your train boarding time as there are numerous services at the station and your train will typically sit there for ten mins or so prior to leaving and you can always board early and get situation.
DART's proposal was to put it at the convention center and hotel. A place where six our of seven days any given week, is dead. You can't create a hub out of nothing... and therefore having a majority of inbound and outbound passengers boarding at neighboring satellite stations negates nearly all benefits of the terminus. Instead, it appeared to be a poorly disguised attempt to support (via massive tax $) an already tax $ heavy investment that was the convention center hotel. But instead of boosting the hotel (who does that with transit???), it would have been another massively empty boondoggle that the city is noted for.
Such a station under EMC would be far more beneficial. Or, deferring D2 and the terminus idea altogether until some game changer development like the previously proposed Smart District would make more sense.
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