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Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 08 Sep 2018 12:10
by dwdwone
Matt777 wrote:
dwdwone wrote:I understand they were having congestion problems downtown, and that the system was at or over capacity. But why build a lime just a few blocks away when they could create a subway loop to the north where there is no service. What I mean is an Oaklawn-Lemmon subway which still provide the needed relief while hitting a highly underserved area. They could run it through the existing subway and branch off at or near Lemmon. Many new areas would be served, and pointedly, areas without a freeway as there are really no cross town freeways until you hit the suburbs. And though part of that area does have a streetcar, I'm thinking of the DART market. Plus with all the millennial urbanites in those areas, it might get even more people out of their cars. The route may be a bit longer but it would also be easier to drill through,

Not like that is going to happen. The route decision has already been made. Still I think it would be a better solution.


I would love to see a subway line in Uptown and Oak Lawn, but I think the cost would be astronomical because it would require more tunneling and likley deeper tunneling. D2 runs through a desolate area of Downtown with lots of surface parking. The subway portions are much easier "cut and cover" type digging. Also, I think there's more empty room for new high density development along D2 than Uptown. I'd prefer using the money for an extensive streetcar network around Downtown and surrounding areas. Bu all in all, I think D2 is not necessary but a nice-to-have. Certainly a better use of funds than the $1 billion Cotton Belt line that will see a few hundred users per day at best...... The Cotton Belt line will be the future "Bridge to Nowhere." When that happens, I hope that ALL responsible lose their jobs.


Are they doing cut and cover on Commerce Street?
I would think that putting in tunnels in an area full of sky scrapers and an existing tunnel network (pedestrian) would require TBMs anyway. Even at a slightly (?) increased distance, tunneling through a dense residential section with smaller office buildings and no existing tunnels would be easier and faster. Plus, they could finish out the Knox Henderson station and make that a touchpoint for the big circle. The spur on to Oak Lawn could be partially elevated and they'd save some money there, though they are better off with tunnels. We don't get much ice and snow but when we do, DART light rail that is above ground often becomes paralyzed. Of course thats a different issue but a subway makes that a bonus.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 11 Sep 2018 10:08
by TNWE
Matt777 wrote: Bu all in all, I think D2 is not necessary but a nice-to-have. Certainly a better use of funds than the $1 billion Cotton Belt line that will see a few hundred users per day at best...... The Cotton Belt line will be the future "Bridge to Nowhere." When that happens, I hope that ALL responsible lose their jobs.


As opposed to a 1.2 billion dollar subway that will generate few, if any net-new riders? And inconvenience a fair few current Green & Orange line riders who live or work in the north end of downtown?

D2 is trying to be too much at once- if the goal is to offer redundancy, it can't be more than a few blocks from the existing line, otherwise you're losing existing ridership by being outside the 5 min walk radius. If the goal is to gain new ridership, it *has* to be far enough away from the existing line that the 5 min walk radius doesn't overlap. Then add in a level of NIMBY-ism from Deep Ellum and Farmers Market residents (that Park Cities types could only aspire to) and you have a convoluted route that results in a station in the middle of parking lots and the all but abandoned East Transfer center.

My pie-in-the-sky dream is that Bezos picks Dallas for Amazon's HQ2, but on the condition that Dallas and DART expel and publically shame the people responsible for the god-awful, split the baby, everything to everyone design for D2.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 11 Sep 2018 16:07
by Cbdallas
My biggest challenge with the current DART system is that there are not enough urban stations serving Dallas. Every line inside of loop 12 should have more stations especially as you close in towards downtown. We have made it easy to live in the burbs and work downtown but not easy if you actually live in the city.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 11 Sep 2018 16:16
by ContriveDallasite
Cbdallas wrote:My biggest challenge with the current DART system is that there are not enough urban stations serving Dallas. Every line inside of loop 12 should have more stations especially as you close in towards downtown. We have made it easy to live in the burbs and work downtown but not easy if you actually live in the city.


My form of an urbanist fantasy wet dream would be a fully underground line from VP following the Katy Trail with stations + Bus/Tram connections at every major intersection in Uptown. Then branching off towards Love Field then submerging and following DNT north towards Legacy.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 11 Sep 2018 19:23
by northsouth
dwdwone wrote:Are they doing cut and cover on Commerce Street?
I would think that putting in tunnels in an area full of sky scrapers and an existing tunnel network (pedestrian) would require TBMs anyway.


Yes, the section from Metro Center station to the CBD East station will be bored. This includes the stretch under Commerce St and the curves underneath Belo Garden and Main Street Garden, though Commerce St station will likely require an open excavation to some extent.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 22 Oct 2018 13:21
by Cbdallas
The train corridor through downtown Dallas this past Sunday was super clogged with the green line taking people to the fair. It took 45 minutes to get from Market center station to Fair park station with most of the delay from West End to Pearl. If we continue to grow as it seems we are we will need this new route to unclog the bottleneck downtown. If we don't then I would say DART is pretty limited in growing beyond where it is today.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 22 Oct 2018 16:33
by Hannibal Lecter
^ And if someone said we needed to spend $1.2 billion dollars to widen I-345 for the extra State Fair Traffic three weekends a year you would say?

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 22 Oct 2018 16:50
by jeffbrown2002
Hannibal Lecter wrote:^ And if someone said we needed to spend $1.2 billion dollars to widen I-345 for the extra State Fair Traffic three weekends a year you would say?

I would say spending that money on a rail corridor is 1.2 billion times more efficient than spending it on single occupant car lanes.
The Case for Mass Transit.png

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 01:24
by joshua.dodd
Dallas needs to build a real subway system in the city. DART rail simply does not do the job. It's inconvenient and the system was designed to accommodate the suburbs, not the actual city itself. Dallas needs to build a subway system around the core and densest neighborhoods that is entirely separate from the DART system.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 07:34
by dzh
joshua.dodd wrote:Dallas needs to build a real subway system in the city. DART rail simply does not do the job. It's inconvenient and the system was designed to accommodate the suburbs, not the actual city itself. Dallas needs to build a subway system around the core and densest neighborhoods that is entirely separate from the DART system.


In my opinion, the biggest problem with DART is that you have the layout and design of a commuter rail system...but it's utilizing light rail vehicles...like what the actual Hell???

I think most people on this forum would love it if DART built a separate heavy rail system. That being said, I don't know how this feat could ever be accomplished. Beyond the original 1980s proposal for the system, I don't think building a heavy rail has since been proposed. I'm almost curious to ask if anyone has any ideas on how to make this pipe dream a reality.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 08:14
by texasstar
^ Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly are the advantages of heavy rail over light rail?

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 09:25
by Tivo_Kenevil
Nah. Building a Subway is just to expensive. Listen DART is worthless; what we need is just a robust streetcar system that has ROW and High frequencies.

Say what you will about streetcars; but Dallas' MATA street car ridership is actually quite decent. The Oak Cliff Street Car ridership is actually not that bad considering it's not connected to anything. Once the Downtown Lines connect MATA and Oak Cliff; ridership should bump up for these lines.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 10:25
by Warrior2015
Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Nah. Building a Subway is just to expensive. Listen DART is worthless; what we need is just a robust streetcar system that has ROW and High frequencies.

Say what you will about streetcars; but Dallas' MATA street car ridership is actually quite decent. The Oak Cliff Street Car ridership is actually not that bad considering it's not connected to anything. Once the Downtown Lines connect MATA and Oak Cliff; ridership should bump up for these lines.

Right. And streetcars just have a cool factor to them so alot of people will ride them just for the hell of it.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 11:18
by Matt777
Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Nah. Building a Subway is just to expensive. Listen DART is worthless; what we need is just a robust streetcar system that has ROW and High frequencies.

Say what you will about streetcars; but Dallas' MATA street car ridership is actually quite decent. The Oak Cliff Street Car ridership is actually not that bad considering it's not connected to anything. Once the Downtown Lines connect MATA and Oak Cliff; ridership should bump up for these lines.


Just gonna leave this right here again: :-)
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?us ... NUajKba1Lh

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 11:54
by TNWE
jeffbrown2002 wrote:
Hannibal Lecter wrote:^ And if someone said we needed to spend $1.2 billion dollars to widen I-345 for the extra State Fair Traffic three weekends a year you would say?

I would say spending that money on a rail corridor is 1.2 billion times more efficient than spending it on single occupant car lanes.
The Case for Mass Transit.png


Leaving aside the fact that state fair ridership is not a valid metric to base billion-dollar decicions on, the delays were the result of full Green Line trains getting fuller as they picked up riders at Victory (TRE), West End (Red & Blue lines from the south) and Pearl (Red, Blue, Orange from the north)- not auto traffic crossing the line. Dwell times were far longer than usual to accommodate the additional strollers, wheelchairs, and generally packed trains.

The D2 alignment does absolutely nothing to address these issues- the only difference would be that the giant crowds of people trying to get to fair park would be cramming the platforms in a tunnel instead of at street level, and all of the strollers and wheelchairs would need to wait for an elevator or two to get down to the subway platform level.

Also, please don't throw around banal transit memes- you may think its a briliant mic drop, but anyone with an IQ above room temperature knows that buses have to actually have riders for that math to work out. A 40 foot bus with one or two riders is way worse than a single-occupant car, and that's not even considering the additional route miles from connections or serpintine routings that most bus trips involve.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 13:11
by jeffbrown2002
TNWE wrote:Leaving aside the fact that state fair ridership is not a valid metric to base billion-dollar decicions on, the delays were the result of full Green Line trains getting fuller as they picked up riders at Victory (TRE), West End (Red & Blue lines from the south) and Pearl (Red, Blue, Orange from the north)- not auto traffic crossing the line. Dwell times were far longer than usual to accommodate the additional strollers, wheelchairs, and generally packed trains.


Ok I really should have cleared this up in my original response but the reason for the 45+ minute delay on Sunday was NOT due to the State Fair as the original post (and so subsequent posts) surmised.
Cbdallas wrote:The train corridor through downtown Dallas this past Sunday was super clogged with the green line taking people to the fair. It took 45 minutes to get from Market center station to Fair park station with most of the delay from West End to Pearl.
The delay was actually caused by power getting knocked out in the region around Mockingbird Station affecting the Red, Blue, and Orange Lines passing through the area. I know because I was on a Blue Line train heading south that day and got caught up in the mess just as the outage struck, getting delayed at White Rock for several minutes and then again approaching Mockingbird. Not to mention DART tweeted out the reason eventually:
https://twitter.com/DARTAlerts/status/1054070768563355650
DART Twitter.png

It would be quite a feat for delays to extend past half an hour solely due to people with strollers/wheelchairs taking a long time on platforms.

TNWE wrote:The D2 alignment does absolutely nothing to address these issues- the only difference would be that the giant crowds of people trying to get to fair park would be cramming the platforms in a tunnel instead of at street level, and all of the strollers and wheelchairs would need to wait for an elevator or two to get down to the subway platform level.


So yes, the D2 alignment does absolutely everything to address THAT issue (the blockages stemming from the power outage) because the Green Line wouldn't have been affected at all, since it and the Orange Line would be on a completely separate route not having to compete for space on the downtown transit mall and therefore navigate with the delays from the Red and Blue Lines getting held up to the north.

TNWE wrote:Also, please don't throw around banal transit memes- you may think its a briliant mic drop, but anyone with an IQ above room temperature knows that buses have to actually have riders for that math to work out. A 40 foot bus with one or two riders is way worse than a single-occupant car, and that's not even considering the additional route miles from connections or serpintine routings that most bus trips involve.


Nah I'll go with epic mic drop :lol: Facetiousness aside, that picture is not a 'meme' it's a fact. Of course you'd have to fill the bus for the 'meme' to be true. What is the goal of mass transit? So you're right, that is a perfectly legitimate issue because it is all for naught if people don't use the bus. So that necessitates the question: how do we convince people to abandon their cars and ride public transit? (unless we propose just, I don't know, stacking freeways and roads on top of each other ad infinitum since we've run out of space)

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 13:49
by Cbdallas
I am glad to hear that there was another issue. I was on the Green line train downtown and we had no idea why the delay but it seemed strange that the train would stop and sit in between each station until we past PEARL when we went back to normal speed to Fair Park Station. My point was that as Dallas grows and ridership grows it will become increasingly difficult to funnel all of our trains through one track downtown so if the subway is completed sometime in the next decade then maybe we can get ahead of it.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 14:06
by jeffbrown2002
Cbdallas wrote:I am glad to hear that there was another issue. I was on the Green line train downtown and we had no idea why the delay but it seemed strange that the train would stop and sit in between each station until we past PEARL when we went back to normal speed to Fair Park Station. My point was that as Dallas grows and ridership grows it will become increasingly difficult to funnel all of our trains through one track downtown so if the subway is completed sometime in the next decade then maybe we can get ahead of it.


I completely agree, that's why I and so many others view the construction of D2 as a subway as so necessary.
I will say I was disappointed on Sunday with how little information was given to passengers until DART tweeted the reason sometime later. Even if they don't want to come on over the intercom, the train operators have a pre-recorded message they can activate when they are delayed, something along the lines of "We will be delayed momentarily due to train traffic up ahead, we expect to be underway soon, thank you for your patience." Our operator didn't utilize that message or the intercom causing people (many of whom were just causal State Fair riders not that familiar with DART) to speculate on what was wrong for the longest time. Just a little nitpick I observed that had an easy enough solution.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 14:32
by Tucy
jeffbrown2002 wrote:
TNWE wrote:Leaving aside the fact that state fair ridership is not a valid metric to base billion-dollar decicions on, the delays were the result of full Green Line trains getting fuller as they picked up riders at Victory (TRE), West End (Red & Blue lines from the south) and Pearl (Red, Blue, Orange from the north)- not auto traffic crossing the line. Dwell times were far longer than usual to accommodate the additional strollers, wheelchairs, and generally packed trains.


Ok I really should have cleared this up in my original response but the reason for the 45+ minute delay on Sunday was NOT due to the State Fair as the original post (and so subsequent posts) surmised.
Cbdallas wrote:The train corridor through downtown Dallas this past Sunday was super clogged with the green line taking people to the fair. It took 45 minutes to get from Market center station to Fair park station with most of the delay from West End to Pearl.
The delay was actually caused by power getting knocked out in the region around Mockingbird Station affecting the Red, Blue, and Orange Lines passing through the area. I know because I was on a Blue Line train heading south that day and got caught up in the mess just as the outage struck, getting delayed at White Rock for several minutes and then again approaching Mockingbird. Not to mention DART tweeted out the reason eventually:
https://twitter.com/DARTAlerts/status/1054070768563355650
DART Twitter.png
It would be quite a feat for delays to extend past half an hour solely due to people with strollers/wheelchairs taking a long time on platforms.

TNWE wrote:The D2 alignment does absolutely nothing to address these issues- the only difference would be that the giant crowds of people trying to get to fair park would be cramming the platforms in a tunnel instead of at street level, and all of the strollers and wheelchairs would need to wait for an elevator or two to get down to the subway platform level.


So yes, the D2 alignment does absolutely everything to address THAT issue (the blockages stemming from the power outage) because the Green Line wouldn't have been affected at all, since it and the Orange Line would be on a completely separate route not having to compete for space on the downtown transit mall and therefore navigate with the delays from the Red and Blue Lines getting held up to the north.


I'm not understanding why the Green line trains were affected in the current system. There apparently was no power outage affecting downtown... what am I missing?

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 15:28
by jeffbrown2002
Tucy wrote:I'm not understanding why the Green line trains were affected in the current system. There apparently was no power outage affecting downtown... what am I missing?


Currently all four lines go through the same stretch of track downtown, so it creates a bottleneck. Blue, Red, and Orange Line trains couldn't proceed smoothly up and down through the Cityplace tunnel because of the outage up north, so suddenly you have trains from those lines getting stuck downtown because there's no place for them to go, and that subsequently affects the Green Line just trying to get through downtown even though that line doesn't go anywhere near Mockingbird. Basically it was a domino effect of delays.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 15:33
by TNWE
Tucy wrote:I'm not understanding why the Green line trains were affected in the current system. There apparently was no power outage affecting downtown... what am I missing?


Welcome to DFW Urbanist logic - every bad thing that happens is the result of not throwing enough money at whatever hodgepodge of policy proposals they personally support :roll: :roll:

Setting aside the ridiculousness of a random power outage as a compelling reason to spend $1.2 billion on a subway to nowhere, even if D2 were built, a power outage at Mockingbird would still affect Orange Line service and as a result block Green Line trains headed to/from fair park.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 16:35
by jeffbrown2002
TNWE wrote:Welcome to DFW Urbanist logic - every bad thing that happens is the result of not throwing enough money at whatever hodgepodge of policy proposals they personally support :roll: :roll:

Setting aside the ridiculousness of a random power outage as a compelling reason to spend $1.2 billion on a subway to nowhere, even if D2 were built, a power outage at Mockingbird would still affect Orange Line service and as a result block Green Line trains headed to/from fair park.


True, it just happens to be one compelling reason to invest in our region's transportation future. As to your other point, that's under one of the proposed possibilities for when the subway opens but if you've looked at DART's potential operating plans for D2 you'll know one of the other proposals is for the Orange Line to continue alongside the Green Line to Lawnview (in anticipation for a rail extension eastward toward Masters Drive) and another possible operating plan is for the Orange Line to terminate at the proposed CBD East station, both of which would've allowed the Green Line to remain unaffected in this scenario.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 16:46
by TNWE
jeffbrown2002 wrote:
TNWE wrote:Nah I'll go with epic mic drop :lol: Facetiousness aside, that picture is not a 'meme' it's a fact. Of course you'd have to fill the bus for the 'meme' to be true. What is the goal of mass transit? So you're right, that is a perfectly legitimate issue because it is all for naught if people don't use the bus. So that necessitates the question: how do we convince people to abandon their cars and ride public transit? (unless we propose just, I don't know, stacking freeways and roads on top of each other ad infinitum since we've run out of space)


If your statement is only factual under conditions which rarely occur in Dallas, it's not a fact- it's a pipe dream. Sure, if we had the Dallas Sheriff compel all the people in a given neighborhood to rearrange their lives so they all took the bus to work instead of individual cars, our transit system would be a lot more functional. Now let's apply that coercive approach to other issues holding back the urban core of Dallas and make the homelessness, crime, and underperforming schools "go away." How do you feel about that?

This forum is obsessed with designing cities to accommodate single, professional, above-average income individuals, and ignores the reality faced by the 80% of people who:

- Can't afford close-in housing near their jobs
- Are reliant on family or daycare to look after their kids while they work
- Have to consistently show up on-time for their work shifts
- Have jobs with no single or fixed work location

It's extremely arrogant and disdainful to say "Oh, why don't you just take the bus?" to someone whose life is several orders of magnitude harder than that of a senior associate crayon sniffer at an urban design firm or whatever you people do for work. People should be free to go about their lives however they see fit, not sneered at by people who get subway envy every time they talk to their NYC friends.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 17:25
by TNWE
jeffbrown2002 wrote:
TNWE wrote:Welcome to DFW Urbanist logic - every bad thing that happens is the result of not throwing enough money at whatever hodgepodge of policy proposals they personally support :roll: :roll:

Setting aside the ridiculousness of a random power outage as a compelling reason to spend $1.2 billion on a subway to nowhere, even if D2 were built, a power outage at Mockingbird would still affect Orange Line service and as a result block Green Line trains headed to/from fair park.


True, it just happens to be one compelling reason to invest in our region's transportation future. As to your other point, that's under one of the proposed possibilities for when the subway opens but if you've looked at DART's potential operating plans for D2 you'll know one of the other proposals is for the Orange Line to continue alongside the Green Line to Lawnview (in anticipation for a rail extension eastward toward Masters Drive) and another possible operating plan is for the Orange Line to terminate at the proposed CBD East station, both of which would've allowed the Green Line to remain unaffected in this scenario.


I have looked at DART's proposed operating plan, and both those options are highly unlikely to ever happen. The North Central section is consistently the busiest part of the system, and removing Orange line trains from that section would reduce frequency and increase crowding on the Red line. If they added additional Red line frequencies to compensate, it puts traffic right back on the surface mall (which obliterates your argument that D2 is desperately needed because the transit mall is congested).

DART won't have the borrowing capacity to self-fund the Masters extension, and I doubt it will have the ridership to merit FTA funds. Most of all, it would primarily benefit Mesquite, which doesn't have any room under the sales tax cap to join DART, so there's no real case to build rail out there.

The CBD east turnback option is feasible, but kinda pointless since the station only serves parking lots and a ghost town of a transfer center. Unless they're planning on building a pocket track or terminating platform underground ($$$), turning Orange Line trains could delay Green line trains. Also, I recall much consternation and wailing when DART's original D2 plan called for a tunneled spur of the Orange line to a useful terminus near the Convention center. But the DFW Urbanist logic of "Convention center bad" prevailed, and now we're stuck with a vastly more expensive routing with zero net new riders because a bunch of activists and elected officials had subway envy.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 18:36
by jeffbrown2002
TNWE wrote:If your statement is only factual under conditions which rarely occur in Dallas, it's not a fact- it's a pipe dream. Sure, if we had the Dallas Sheriff compel all the people in a given neighborhood to rearrange their lives so they all took the bus to work instead of individual cars, our transit system would be a lot more functional. Now let's apply that coercive approach to other issues holding back the urban core of Dallas and make the homelessness, crime, and underperforming schools "go away." How do you feel about that?


Everything starts out as a 'pipe-dream.' DART was a 'pipe-dream' until it wasn't, much to the disdain of some people on here apparently. Again, the point of the picture was showing how much more efficient it was to move a large amount of people in a bus (or train) vs a car, or do you dispute that? Our problem is getting the people to GET IN the buses and trains.

No one is or was proposing any such forceful coercion as you mentioned, the most sensible approach is a series of incentives and disincentives, where there are several options to choose from, none of which include getting the police to put guns to people's heads. They should want to take transit out of their own volition. So how do we do that? You haven't answered my question presumably because you either have no answer or are fine with the Los Angeles-like transit oblivion we face if we sit back and do nothing. Increasing the gas tax is one example; back in 2008 DART ridership numbers soared when the price of gas rose higher and higher. People CHOSE transit because it suddenly became more cost effective to do so.

TNWE wrote:This forum is obsessed with designing cities to accommodate single, professional, above-average income individuals, and ignores the reality faced by the 80% of people who:

- Can't afford close-in housing near their jobs
- Are reliant on family or daycare to look after their kids while they work
- Have to consistently show up on-time for their work shifts
- Have jobs with no single or fixed work location

It's extremely arrogant and disdainful to say "Oh, why don't you just take the bus?" to someone whose life is several orders of magnitude harder than that of a senior associate crayon sniffer at an urban design firm or whatever you people do for work. People should be free to go about their lives however they see fit, not sneered at by people who get subway envy every time they talk to their NYC friends.


The city was poorly designed for transit, what can I say? It was designed with the mentality that the automobile would always be king and not ever have to cede ground. Well it's hard to maintain that stance when millions and millions of people eventually inhabit the city that's only so many square miles across isn't it? It's now up to leaders to advance the region with transit in mind as is being done now with several developments, Mockingbird, CityLine, and the new proposal at Trinity Mills to name a few.

As to the final point, I would contend the attitude of transit advocates is the exact opposite of the disdainful portrait you paint. They know it is often the poor that have no other choice than public transit and therefore advocate for the city to become more walkable and bolster transit-oriented developments that are easily accessible. It just so happens that what is good for them is good for all of us.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 18:56
by Matt777
I think the anti-transit anti-urban anti-quality of life people here on this thread take for granted that Dallas will always be booming with jobs and prosperity. That's not a given. If people don't want to live here, the jobs will follow them wherever they move. People used to move in hordes to Detroit, then they didn't want to live there anymore. We all see what happened there. I have noticed a serious uptick of long time Dallas residents I know moving to Austin and especially Denver. Those cities have invested in quality of life, and in Denver's case great public transportation. Dallas is not doing that. It's far, far, far too busy shoveling tens of millions of tax dollars to developers of suburban style crap and kissing the butts of developers.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 19:00
by jeffbrown2002
TNWE wrote:I have looked at DART's proposed operating plan, and both those options are highly unlikely to ever happen. The North Central section is consistently the busiest part of the system, and removing Orange line trains from that section would reduce frequency and increase crowding on the Red line. If they added additional Red line frequencies to compensate, it puts traffic right back on the surface mall (which obliterates your argument that D2 is desperately needed because the transit mall is congested).


I'd argue it's the more likely of the plans to be approved, having the Orange Line continue back northwards to Parker Road after the subway is built would be more difficult operationally compared to just adding more Red Line trains and I've seen nothing to suggest that the added Red Line trains would equate the quantity of the trains from the four lines currently forced to transit the surface mall as you're implying.
You also forget DART is working to extend the platforms on the Red and Blue Lines to accommodate 3-car trains which will alleviate some of the congestion.

TNWE wrote:DART won't have the borrowing capacity to self-fund the Masters extension, and I doubt it will have the ridership to merit FTA funds. Most of all, it would primarily benefit Mesquite, which doesn't have any room under the sales tax cap to join DART, so there's no real case to build rail out there.

That's an argument for another day. Suffice to say the sales tax cap needs to be abolished, and hopefully upcoming elections will help in that regard.

TNWE wrote:The CBD east turnback option is feasible, but kinda pointless since the station only serves parking lots and a ghost town of a transfer center. Unless they're planning on building a pocket track or terminating platform underground ($$$), turning Orange Line trains could delay Green line trains. Also, I recall much consternation and wailing when DART's original D2 plan called for a tunneled spur of the Orange line to a useful terminus near the Convention center. But the DFW Urbanist logic of "Convention center bad" prevailed, and now we're stuck with a vastly more expensive routing with zero net new riders because a bunch of activists and elected officials had subway envy.


It's disappointing you chalk this all up to some mythical 'subway envy' the people of Dallas allegedly have. Most cities of Dallas' size have some sort of underground metro system, that's what keeps their urban cores sustainable. I'm curious, did you support a fully at-grade D2 alignment? or no D2 at all? For what it's worth, I originally supported the 'C3A' alignment that serviced both Union Station and the convention center hotel as well as City Hall and the Farmers Market, albeit it was a mostly underground alignment.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 19:37
by jeffbrown2002
Matt777 wrote:I think the anti-transit anti-urban anti-quality of life people here on this thread take for granted that Dallas will always be booming with jobs and prosperity. That's not a given. If people don't want to live here, the jobs will follow them wherever they move. People used to move in hordes to Detroit, then they didn't want to live there anymore. We all see what happened there. I have noticed a serious uptick of long time Dallas residents I know moving to Austin and especially Denver. Those cities have invested in quality of life, and in Denver's case great public transportation. Dallas is not doing that. It's far, far, far too busy shoveling tens of millions of tax dollars to developers of suburban style crap and kissing the butts of developers.


All good points and quite the cautionary tale. I am thankful that there is at least a willingness for discussion on transit in Dallas and enough support for DART to exist in the first place; whereas in other cities in Texas, most notably Houston, apparently it was like pulling teeth just to get their modest light rail system off the ground.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 22:38
by Hannibal Lecter
jeffbrown2002 wrote:I would say spending that money on a rail corridor is 1.2 billion times more efficient than spending it on single occupant car lanes.


And I would say you need to learn the difference between theoretical and actual. That one mile highway handles as many people each day as the entire DART system -- trains and busses. And at about 1% of the operating cost.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 22:41
by Hannibal Lecter
Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Say what you will about streetcars; but Dallas' MATA street car ridership is actually quite decent. The Oak Cliff Street Car ridership is actually not that bad considering it's not connected to anything. Once the Downtown Lines connect MATA and Oak Cliff; ridership should bump up for these lines.


LOL. It's easy to get riders when you don't charge for the service. Start charging $1 ride to cover 10% of the operating costs and see how many users you still have. Look at the debacle in Atlanta.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 22:43
by Hannibal Lecter
TNWE wrote:Welcome to DFW Urbanist logic - every bad thing that happens is the result of not throwing enough money at whatever hodgepodge of policy proposals they personally support :roll: :roll:

Setting aside the ridiculousness of a random power outage as a compelling reason to spend $1.2 billion on a subway to nowhere, even if D2 were built, a power outage at Mockingbird would still affect Orange Line service and as a result block Green Line trains headed to/from fair park.


Watch out. They don't much care for people who don't drink their Kool-Aid around here....

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 23:29
by jeffbrown2002
Hannibal Lecter wrote:And I would say you need to learn the difference between theoretical and actual. That one mile highway handles as many people each day as the entire DART system -- trains and busses. And at about 1% of the operating cost.


Well ya got me there, we should built eight-lane highways all over the Metroplex! Oh wait...

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 23 Oct 2018 23:40
by jeffbrown2002
Hannibal Lecter wrote:
TNWE wrote:Welcome to DFW Urbanist logic - every bad thing that happens is the result of not throwing enough money at whatever hodgepodge of policy proposals they personally support :roll: :roll:

Setting aside the ridiculousness of a random power outage as a compelling reason to spend $1.2 billion on a subway to nowhere, even if D2 were built, a power outage at Mockingbird would still affect Orange Line service and as a result block Green Line trains headed to/from fair park.


Watch out. They don't much care for people who don't drink their Kool-Aid around here....


Yeah, the Kool-Aid of facts and objective reality!
I think I speak for most here when I say the discussion is welcome, but the anti-transit, burn-it-all-down cuz it's nothing but a WASTE anyway attitude and rhetoric is not. Neither is pinning our transportation hopes on a technology from the 15th century (the personal carriage) a real solution to sustaining the growth of the region.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 24 Oct 2018 05:26
by joshua.dodd
Hannibal Lecter wrote:
Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Say what you will about streetcars; but Dallas' MATA street car ridership is actually quite decent. The Oak Cliff Street Car ridership is actually not that bad considering it's not connected to anything. Once the Downtown Lines connect MATA and Oak Cliff; ridership should bump up for these lines.


LOL. It's easy to get riders when you don't charge for the service. Start charging $1 ride to cover 10% of the operating costs and see how many users you still have. Look at the debacle in Atlanta.


This is why using MATA as a mass transit option is somewhat impractical. The system is built as a tourist attraction. The rolling stock is extremely old and breaks down constantly due to age, which incurs major cost burdens. And these issues are compounded greatly by the fact that the service is free of charge. A more practical solution would definitely be in streetcars. But a modern streetcar system like the Bishop Art system, not vintage cars that are not reliable. And there would have to be a fare. Ridership numbers wouldn't be affected too badly since there is real demand for commuters who live in the neighborhood that need it to go back and forth to work. MATA works well as an attraction, not as an authority of mass transit.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 24 Oct 2018 07:01
by tamtagon
The creative writing spicing up this debate is kinda fun and gratifying to see disagreements peppered mostly with wit and pith rather than battery acid. Maybe since the Dallas V. Houston fights don't really happen much anymore, there's not a whole lot of vitriol and hubris to seem into other hot topics.

texasstar wrote:Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly are the advantages of heavy rail over light rail?


I'm trying to remember how the PR campaign 'illuminated' the light rail advantages back in the day, but that dose of advertising slips my mind. Something along the lines of quieter, more reliable and zippier start/stop; mostly I think electric versus diesel locomotion was the deal.

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I'm not sure why the big peak-commuter advantage of heavy rail hasn't been infused into the light rail system. Longer 'express' trains.
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Transit agency funding in Texas is whacked out and out dated. Forced into city-by-city votes, the population centers are left with garbled regional plans which will never be as efficient as they could be.
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Upgrading the service line through the South Dallas maintenance facility would certainly help with special event crowds, for people getting to and from Fair Park and for events being planned at Fair Park.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 24 Oct 2018 09:23
by electricron
tamtagon wrote:
texasstar wrote:Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly are the advantages of heavy rail over light rail?


I'm trying to remember how the PR campaign 'illuminated' the light rail advantages back in the day, but that dose of advertising slips my mind. Something along the lines of quieter, more reliable and zippier start/stop; mostly I think electric versus diesel locomotion was the deal.
-----
I'm not sure why the big peak-commuter advantage of heavy rail hasn't been infused into the light rail system. Longer 'express' trains.
-----
Transit agency funding in Texas is whacked out and out dated. Forced into city-by-city votes, the population centers are left with garbled regional plans which will never be as efficient as they could be.
-----
Upgrading the service line through the South Dallas maintenance facility would certainly help with special event crowds, for people getting to and from Fair Park and for events being planned at Fair Park.


Wow, many ideas to discuss with that response....
A heavy rail metro style train lost an election to finance it by voters within the city of Dallas and all other suburbs. It didn't pass in any city. So DART proposed a light rail system instead. There was no listed advantages for light rail over heavy rail except to note it was cheaper in the second election. Frankly, the proponents would have preferred building heavy rail.

Longer trains, it doesn't matter if light or heavy, require longer platforms. DART's light rail platforms were built for three traditional light rail units, and designed to be expanded to four units. DART developing of the longer SLRV meant the original platforms were good for two SLRVs and could be expanded to three SLRVs. DART built the Green and Orange Lines platforms for three SLRVs, and is presently extending all Blue and Red Line platforms to the same length. Each LRV was 93 feet in length, each SLRV is 124 feet in length. Soon all DART light rail platforms will be 375 feet in length vs 275 feet.
Additionally, express trains usually require more tracks in general. At least, an available track slot throughout the corridor where you plan to run express trains. DART's light rail system with the downtown street mall with all four lines using just two tracks, does not have an available slot for additional trains, express or locals. DART will nothave additional track slots in the street mall until D2 is built, so trains can take an alternate route freeing up track slots on the existing route.

Texas state laws limits which governments can collect sales taxes. Presently, only the state and cities can. Counties can not levy sales taxes, counties revenues are limited to property taxes. As long as DART desires to use sales taxes to fund its operations, then individual cities must vote on it. Even if the citizens of Dallas County wished to fund DART through a property tax increase by establishing a county wide transit agency, an election county wide would have to be passed. Golly. look at Denton County DCTA, they also decided to use sales taxes vs property taxes to subsidize it, and only three cities within the County passed it. If they held a County wide vote, I doubt DCTA would even exist. Never-the-less, County based transit agencies will not achieve the regional transit agency you desire. The only mechanism to accomplish that within the State laws today is DART - where every city in the region joins it.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 24 Oct 2018 10:08
by Matt777
Why do anti-transit people not realized that an EFFECTIVE public transit system will benefit them in their Tahoes and Suburbans too? It seems like Dallas will keep adding people, but there will be a breaking point on how many personal automobiles the city can add. Do you want total gridlock? Another hour to your automobile commute? Yesterday, it took me 45 minutes for my two mile commute from East Dallas to Downtown. 45 minutes. There should be a transit line along Ross into Downtown (and there once was!) that would whisk me home in 10 minutes or less, but it was 45 minutes. I know DART hasn't done a great job of creating an effective system but that is more a problem of them versus public transit itself. They didn't have much to start with, either. An effective public transit system may have been an option in the past, but it is becoming necessary before commute times spiral out of control.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 24 Oct 2018 10:12
by muncien
Personally, I don't think we need to design the DART system to accommodate for 'one-offs' (power outages, accidents, state fair, etc), any more than our our street/hwy systems should plan for it. That's the same train of though that got us five lanes of one-way roads right next to AA center, etc.

Part of the problem with DART's D2 approach was the funding source they were going for. When you go after 'core capacity' funding, those previously mentioned attributes are your 'justification' and therefore govern your solution.

Instead, DART should be focused on expanding service to more potential users in the core. The original D2 proposals did this, and a viable streetcar system could do this as well. But that is not where we are now, unfortunately.

My concern that the significant costs of building a subway without expanding service to anyone, will only increase the disdain for DART that many already have. It will be shouldered with excessive costs/debts for years to come, without actually improving DART's true objective (providing service to users).I don't think throwing excessive money toward minimal benefit (be it a subway that serves nobody new, or a massive 12 lane freeway) is beneficial to anyone.

I drove through the mix-master on my way to Houston twice in the last month, and seeing the massive amount of new concrete poured at massive costs, all while being surrounded by 200lb single individuals encased in their own 4,000lb carriages, made me sick to my stomach. As someone who is a stickler for efficiency, neither of these options should see the light of day.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 24 Oct 2018 20:14
by electricron
Matt777 wrote:Why do anti-transit people not realized that an EFFECTIVE public transit system will benefit them in their Tahoes and Suburbans too? It seems like Dallas will keep adding people, but there will be a breaking point on how many personal automobiles the city can add. Do you want total gridlock? Another hour to your automobile commute? Yesterday, it took me 45 minutes for my two mile commute from East Dallas to Downtown. 45 minutes. There should be a transit line along Ross into Downtown (and there once was!) that would whisk me home in 10 minutes or less, but it was 45 minutes. I know DART hasn't done a great job of creating an effective system but that is more a problem of them versus public transit itself. They didn't have much to start with, either. An effective public transit system may have been an option in the past, but it is becoming necessary before commute times spiral out of control.


East Dallas told DART not to run a light rail line through it along the old Santa Fe corridor that now hosts a bike trail. DART could have reached Garland using it instead of the old MKT corridor that the Blue Line uses. Going to public scoping and EIS meetings can and will impact corridor decisions for a long time. I’m sorry East Dallas has poor train services now, but much of that can be attributed to what was expressed to DART 20-25 years ago.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 24 Oct 2018 21:47
by jeffbrown2002
tamtagon wrote:
texasstar wrote:Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly are the advantages of heavy rail over light rail?


I'm trying to remember how the PR campaign 'illuminated' the light rail advantages back in the day, but that dose of advertising slips my mind. Something along the lines of quieter, more reliable and zippier start/stop; mostly I think electric versus diesel locomotion was the deal.


That's where things get muddied because outside of the fact that there are several at-grade crossings and that the stations are open and not behind turnstiles (possibly the biggest factor in terms of cost), DART arguably has several hallmarks of a 'heavy rail' metro system:

-Some say heavy rail has power derived exclusively from a third-rail but there are many heavy rail metros including one in Boston powered by overhead catenary wire just like DART rail.
-Some argue heavy rail has large segments underground but the heavy rail metro in Miami is exclusively above ground just like several segments of DART rail.
-Others say higher travel speed is indicative of a heavy rail system but our 'light rail' trains travel up to 65 mph(!) in several sections matching the speed of most heavy rail metros.
-Another (and often the main) argument is larger passenger capacity or longer train length but as has been mentioned DART is extending all platforms to accommodate 3-car consists and once completed our trains will be capable of reaching lengths and capacities bigger than a few of the smaller metros around the U.S.
-The sheer size of the system and spacing of stations is also often cited as an indicator of heavy rail but the size and spacing of the DART system is about equitable to, for example, the Washington D.C. metro system.

Finally even the point of having at-grade crossings as the sign that makes DART's system light rail can be rebutted because a couple of metro lines in Chicago (the well-known 'L') have a few at-grade crossings through the northern suburbs complete with crossing arms.

So there's really no firm set of guidelines since so many systems mix and match attributes, especially in the U.S. I would argue the system DART built is at least a 'medium' metro or medium rail system but obviously that doesn't market as well or as simply as heavy or light rail.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 25 Oct 2018 14:46
by Cbdallas
For me what is really the urban issue is that there is no presence through the uptown area from Victory up to the southern border of Highland Park. If there was a line that cut up through there and then went up the tollway to Frisco and all of that development then I think it could be a fairly robust system. As it stands it is missing out on all of the density and employment that is serviced in that void.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 26 Oct 2018 04:48
by ContriveDallasite
Cbdallas wrote:For me what is really the urban issue is that there is no presence through the uptown area from Victory up to the southern border of Highland Park. If there was a line that cut up through there and then went up the tollway to Frisco and all of that development then I think it could be a fairly robust system. As it stands it is missing out on all of the density and employment that is serviced in that void.


Expensive pipe-dream, but one that would definitely double ridership. Tunnel under Uptown/Katy Trail to Knox, then shoot out to Lovefield then deck over DNT until Legacy. :lol:

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 28 Oct 2018 00:19
by joshua.dodd
Cbdallas wrote:For me what is really the urban issue is that there is no presence through the uptown area from Victory up to the southern border of Highland Park. If there was a line that cut up through there and then went up the tollway to Frisco and all of that development then I think it could be a fairly robust system. As it stands it is missing out on all of the density and employment that is serviced in that void.


Too many NIMBYs in the "rich" area would never allow such an extension. On another hand, the Katy Trail should be re-purposed as a commuter rail route that could serve the neighborhoods. I believe there's a federal clause that says rails to trails can always be returned to rail service if needed.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 28 Oct 2018 00:22
by joshua.dodd
@JeffBrown2002

-Some argue heavy rail has large segments underground but the heavy rail metro in Miami is exclusively above ground just like several segments of DART rail.

Keep in mind that Miami cannot build underground due to its water table.

I would actually argue that DART light rail is, indeed, a prime contender for heavy rail because the system was designed to serve the suburbs by transporting commuters from the outer burbs to Downtown. That alone seals the deal. DART Rail is a commuter system just as the TRE is.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 28 Oct 2018 02:59
by electricron
joshua.dodd wrote:Too many NIMBYs in the "rich" area would never allow such an extension. On another hand, the Katy Trail should be re-purposed as a commuter rail route that could serve the neighborhoods. I believe there's a federal clause that says rails to trails can always be returned to rail service if needed.

I'll agree, Highland and University Park(s) do not want trains and have expressed so in the past. That's why the Katy railroad corridor was not used by DART, favoring instead a more expensive tunnel under Central.
The Dallas neighborhoods south of the Park cities has MATA running through it. There's enough residential and commercial properties within the neighborhoods that commuting far is not needed. They are close enough to downtown they could ride bikes or buses to work if required, although they're rich enough they could afford limo service twice a day.
They certainly don't need and don't want trains.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 29 Oct 2018 09:31
by cowboyeagle05
Oak Lawn would like access though but I doubt Turtle Creek would welcome it passing through.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 29 Oct 2018 15:42
by Cbdallas
I was wanting it to go across uptown and oaklawn not Park cities it could then turn north on the tollway and serve the next station at NW HWY. I don't care about any stations in the bubble you can bypass them completely unless they want a Dallas Country Club/Highland Park Village station LOL.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 30 Oct 2018 10:45
by cowboyeagle05
Highland Park Village station, now that would be hell freezing over. I imagine when the train passed underneath the voiceover would switch to a British butler and that riders would need to pass a background check to be allowed to get off the train.

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 30 Oct 2018 15:21
by Cbdallas
Strategic 100 North American Infrastructure Report
FYI: Other North Texas projects on the list are the the Cotton Belt Regional Rail, the D2 Subway, LBJ East Interstate 635 and the Trinity Lakes TOD Station.

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news ... jects.html

Re: DART D2 Subway

Posted: 01 Nov 2018 21:43
by Alex Rodriguez
cowboyeagle05 wrote:Highland Park Village station, now that would be hell freezing over. I imagine when the train passed underneath the voiceover would switch to a British butler and that riders would need to pass a background check to be allowed to get off the train.


Hilarious