Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

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IcedCowboyCoffee
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Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby IcedCowboyCoffee » 13 Dec 2022 15:00

"Dallas-Fort Worth high-speed rail project begins environmental study"
The North Central Texas Council of Governments is starting an environmental study of high-speed rail between Dallas and Fort Worth.
. . .
The environmental piece of the study is expected to take two years.

Since its start, the Council of Governments has hosted over 180 meetings so far between the public, federal, state and local agencies, elected officials and community organizations.

-Fort Worth Report
https://fortworthreport.org/2022/12/12/dallas-fort-worth-high-speed-rail-project-begins-environmental-study/
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Cbdallas
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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby Cbdallas » 14 Dec 2022 09:16

I see this only benefiting Fort Worth and Arlington for future growth away from Dallas. Not for it.

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The_Overdog
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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby The_Overdog » 14 Dec 2022 09:32

IMO I see this as them employing the Brightline in Florida model - connect a short run, begin operating, and then extend out farther. Gets rid of all the court cases whether it's a landgrab or a functioning railline which sank Texas Central. Is HSR a waste between Dallas and Ft Worth? Probably yes.

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potatocoins
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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby potatocoins » 14 Dec 2022 09:36

That's how I'm seeing this. On its own, it seems pretty useless, but if we continue to expand HSR throughout Texas, then this gets Arlington and Fort Worth connected to the entire system.

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IcedCowboyCoffee
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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby IcedCowboyCoffee » 14 Dec 2022 12:43

Yeah, I see two paths forward for this:

1) This is to get in front of all the hurdles that would come from deciding to extend a hypothetical Dallas-Houston line, so if that opportunity comes for an extension to FW they have all this prep work already done.

or
2) This ends up being a a semi-high speed express train, which I would also be happy to see.
TRE takes an hour between FW and Dallas. Driving takes only about 35-40 minutes. This hypothetical train would probably take only marginally less time than driving, so I can't imagine this would draw growth away from Dallas. The Arlington stop sharply cuts the distance for any train to gain substantial speed before having to slow down again. Route would probably be 20~25 minutes at best.
I'd be happy to see this corridor get serviced with a route that's competitive with driving.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 14 Dec 2022 14:21

IcedCowboyCoffee wrote:I'd be happy to see this corridor get serviced with a route that's competitive with driving.


Unless both your origin and destination are within a few blocks of the stations that's never going to happen.

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dallaz
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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby dallaz » 17 Aug 2023 18:50

Separate high speed rail projects could lead to easier DFW travel


https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/separ ... l/3319121/

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby Tnexster » 18 Aug 2023 09:37

Curious to see how Arlington would pay their share since they have refused to be involved for four decades.

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electricron
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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby electricron » 23 Aug 2023 03:26

NCTCOG's goal per the latest study is to have a one seat ride from downtown Fort Worth to Houston via Dallas. I-30 between Fort Worth and Dallas is their preferred right of way. Elevated at downtown Dallas, it will remain elevated betwen the freeway and service roads to Arlington where it might run in the median of I-30 in Tarrant County. I-30 in Tarrant County is being studies by TXDOT for expansion, there is hope they will leave room in the median for HSR. Entering downtown Fort Worth, since there is no room on the surface for a HSR station near Fort Worth Central, they plan to go under all those railroad tracks and build an underground station. More likely enter the station from the north and leaving the option to head south to Waco, Austin, and San Antonio following I-35W and I-35 right of ways. They want to build through stations, not terminating stations. In this way they save the one seat ride from Dallas to the later three cities if a Triangle is bult instead of a T-Bone.
They are avoiding DFW and Love Field altogether, there are already existing rail corridor to DFW and Love Field, using bus shuttles if not connected directly. Nobody us going to ride the HSR train from Houston to catch a flight from Love or DFW, likewise the other way around.
NCTCOG believe that private enterprise will wish to step in in some way once the Environment clearances are completed. Which is why they are paying to do it. NCTCOG does not and will not have the money to build it, even the DFW portion. A one seat ride, as I mentioned earlier is their goal, means using the Japanese HSR train, ot whatever trains Texas Central buys.

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby Tnexster » 15 Dec 2023 14:52

Feds award $1 million to explore high speed rail connecting Fort Worth, Dallas and Houston
Opponents say the amount is a fraction of the billions required overall and won’t translate into service soon.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/politic ... d-houston/

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby Tnexster » 03 Jan 2024 09:25

Dallas-Fort Worth to Houston high-speed rail: Hurdles remain but some have hope for 2024
Planners are hopeful that recent federal help may jump-start plans to build high-speed rail routes that would connect Fort Worth, Dallas and Houston.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/transpo ... ed-amtrak/

Image

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby lakewoodhobo » 20 Jan 2024 17:07

How Long Before We Can Ride a Bullet Train to Fort Worth?
https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2 ... ort-worth/

This story is a must-read, and not just for the crazy image of a proposed alignment barreling through Lew Sterrett and the future convention center.

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OrangeMike
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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby OrangeMike » 20 Jan 2024 19:24

lakewoodhobo wrote:How Long Before We Can Ride a Bullet Train to Fort Worth?
https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2 ... ort-worth/

This story is a must-read, and not just for the crazy image of a proposed alignment barreling through Lew Sterrett and the future convention center.

Potential-Bullet-Train-Route-1024x683.jpeg


Thank you for posting that.

“Last mile challenges” lol

I usually agree with Cara Mendelsohn on almost nothing, but I think she's spot on here: “I don’t understand how we are investing in something that will be to the detriment of Dallas that will benefit others.”

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electricron
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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby electricron » 22 Jan 2024 10:27

OrangeMike wrote:Thank you for posting that.
“Last mile challenges” lol
I usually agree with Cara Mendelsohn on almost nothing, but I think she's spot on here: “I don’t understand how we are investing in something that will be to the detriment of Dallas that will benefit others.”

I loved Morris's response even better, "unionism and regionalism" to a city council.
There's a reason there are so many cities in the DFW area, and "unionism and regionalism" is not the answer. :mrgreen:

Caltrain between San Jose and San Francisco, not including the unneeded new downtown San Francisco station fiasco, is being upgraded for 110 mph electrified double track corridor for future CHSR trains over a distance of 50 miles or so for around $1 billion.
Could we not spend just as much to upgrade the TRE tracks, and at the same time get it entirely double tracked?
Somehow, I believe strongly that finding $1 billion will be much easier than funding $11 plus billion!

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby Tnexster » 22 Jan 2024 14:43

This doesn't sound like its going to happen. Does anybody believe any of the estimated costs at this point? Especially when somebody says tunnel. I remember somebody from Texas Central telling me way back before the pandemic why they stopped the line at a mall just outside of Loop 610 in Houston and didn't take the line downtown. The reason was the excessive cost as every mile between 610 and downtown was 1B, so that short stretch added about 10B to the cost of the entire line from Dallas which was at that point around 11B. There were a lot of extenuating circumstances including the bayous and water table, existing structures and so on.

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby northsouth » 23 Jan 2024 20:47

Dallas to Fort Worth high-speed rail has some planning head scratchers
https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/editorials/2024/01/23/dallas-to-fort-worth-high-speed-rail-has-some-planning-head-scratchers/
Michael Morris, the council of government’s director of transportation, said an underground option would be studied. Forty-two other alignments have been eliminated since 2020, and getting federal approval for the Dallas-to-Houston station was a laborious process, so it’s unclear whether making it an option is realistic at this stage. Morris said that an underground station would have to be buried 17 stories deep, so how much it could really be considered is in serious doubt.

I was wondering how far down the bedrock starts that close to the river, so I guess here's the answer. Given how much of the approach from the hugs the river and its floodplains, the tunnel would probably have to start out by Loop 12 or at least Illinois Ave. There are reasons why an Texas Central decided on a an elevated station, and this is certainly one of them.

If it weren't for the fact that NCTCOG is dead-set on an Arlington station, the TRE alignment would be so much easier to use (to say nothing of simply electrifying and adding more tracks to the corridor to better separate freight and allow express trains). I don't know if it's due to a commitment to regionalism, or a plan to entice Arlington into finally joining a transit agency, or the fact that that their headquarters are in Arlington's "Entertainment District".

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby MC_ScattCat » 24 Jan 2024 09:21

They could do something with the UPRR alignment too. While that would be more difficult and they'd have to deal with UP it could in theory be done and you'd be close to the Arlington entertainment and UTA.

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northsouth
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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby northsouth » 24 Jan 2024 22:20

MC_ScattCat wrote:They could do something with the UPRR alignment too. While that would be more difficult and they'd have to deal with UP it could in theory be done and you'd be close to the Arlington entertainment and UTA.

Yeah, if only UP wasn't so hostile to passenger trains being built on or run on their lines. The irony of it is that things would work a lot better if the TRE ran on the UP alignment and vice versa. The now-UP line was built in the 1870s, back when towns shot up like weeds along rail lines; while TRE's route built in the 1900s was one of the last main lines built in DFW. By that point, development of towns was a lessening concern in otherwise well-settled areas; trains were faster and needed less frequent water stops, more and more trains were through or express trains not stopping at every town, and any such local trains would be a hindrance on main lines. Thus, the only significant town grown on the line was Irving, which wasn't even a truly new town as it was a relocation of a nearby one to the point where a branch line diverged north to Carrollton. The end result is one line is mostly surrounded by higher population and job density, and the other largely by undeveloped or industrial land not conducive to transit, slightly longer but with fewer curves and grade crossings. But due to historical reasons (the bankruptcy and breakup of the Rock Island railroad, membership in transit agencies), you end up with passenger trains on the line where it was easier to set up as opposed to where it would be most useful (a reoccurring theme in DART rail planning). That being said, ultimately there's a reasonable argument to be made that it's better to have an imperfect system built instead of no system at all, since once you get the hard part of building it done you can always build new development around the lines, but that's easier said than done.

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby I45Tex » 26 Jan 2024 19:27

What about a Houston-style signal-protected at-grade median transit line along Ft. Worth Ave. / West Davis / Irving's East Main / Arlington's Randol Mill Rd.? Any higher-speed like would have to be elevated or grade-separated a la the Red Line north, of course.

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby electricron » 27 Jan 2024 12:36

I45Tex wrote:What about a Houston-style signal-protected at-grade median transit line along Ft. Worth Ave. / West Davis / Irving's East Main / Arlington's Randol Mill Rd.? Any higher-speed like would have to be elevated or grade-separated a la the Red Line north, of course.

A better comparison for HSR trains for environmental effects of elevated HSR train tracks would be the recently built TRE viaduct west of downtown Irving. Just add catenary power lines and poles.
Similar viaducts could be built near the freight yards and freight customers as needed to avoid slow freight train congestion to the HSR trains.
Most likely much of the TRE corridor will need a third track to move the slow freight trains off the high speed tracks. There should be plenty of room to add a third track that DART has successfully done in Garland, Carrollton and Dallas alongside the Blue and Green Lines.

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby MC_ScattCat » 30 Jan 2024 13:51

northsouth wrote:
MC_ScattCat wrote:They could do something with the UPRR alignment too. While that would be more difficult and they'd have to deal with UP it could in theory be done and you'd be close to the Arlington entertainment and UTA.

Yeah, if only UP wasn't so hostile to passenger trains being built on or run on their lines. The irony of it is that things would work a lot better if the TRE ran on the UP alignment and vice versa. The now-UP line was built in the 1870s, back when towns shot up like weeds along rail lines; while TRE's route built in the 1900s was one of the last main lines built in DFW. By that point, development of towns was a lessening concern in otherwise well-settled areas; trains were faster and needed less frequent water stops, more and more trains were through or express trains not stopping at every town, and any such local trains would be a hindrance on main lines. Thus, the only significant town grown on the line was Irving, which wasn't even a truly new town as it was a relocation of a nearby one to the point where a branch line diverged north to Carrollton. The end result is one line is mostly surrounded by higher population and job density, and the other largely by undeveloped or industrial land not conducive to transit, slightly longer but with fewer curves and grade crossings. But due to historical reasons (the bankruptcy and breakup of the Rock Island railroad, membership in transit agencies), you end up with passenger trains on the line where it was easier to set up as opposed to where it would be most useful (a reoccurring theme in DART rail planning). That being said, ultimately there's a reasonable argument to be made that it's better to have an imperfect system built instead of no system at all, since once you get the hard part of building it done you can always build new development around the lines, but that's easier said than done.


I agree UP has no incentive to help TRE. I wish they would just swap tracks as they both start and end in the same place on both ends. If anything maybe add another two tracks and give increase the ROW along the current UP line. Build viaducts in certain areas to keep the TRE lines separated from major streets or highways even UP lines near the GM plant.

We don't need to reinvent the wheel to have this. The entire metroplex could use more MARTA/TRE type systems to connect. TXDOT has used most or all of it's ROW on the area highways so we've reached the expansion limit in most cases. The way I see it there are 5 issues:

1. Lack of funds- taxes would need to be raised or reallocated (which always goes over well)
2. The final mile - need better bus, bike, pedestrian investments
3. Public support - it's too easy to just drive everywhere
4. Clear thoughtful plan - everything is hopes and wishes and no clear idea to communicate to the public
5. Govt. support - right now the cities are all tribal and the state govt. is not interested in these types of projects let alone taking on the railroads

This is all a pipe dream though.

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby Tnexster » 09 Feb 2024 09:49

Sparring over Dallas-to-Houston high-speed rail station idles project funding talks
The monthly Regional Transportation Council meeting was again hijacked by tensions about a proposed Dallas-to-Houston bullet train.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/transpo ... ing-talks/

Also included in this discussion was this...

After a lengthy discussion, the funded projects and partnerships were ultimately approved as originally proposed by RTC staff.

In Dallas, those include the West Dallas Gateway Project, which would construct a roadway with sidewalks and bicycle lanes on Herbert Street under the Union Pacific Railroad line and provide access to Interstate 30; a pedestrian structure over I-30 at Harwood Street; improvements at Harry Hines and Mockingbird near Love Field, and several other infrastructure improvement projects.

Other notable projects selected for funding include assistance for new and replacement vehicles for the Trinity Railway Express and TEXRail lines; regional railroad safety crossing and traffic signal upgrade programs; improvements that would facilitate access to the Dallas County Inland Port at Belt Line Road and Sunrise Road; bond program partnerships in Tarrant and Parker counties and more.

RTC members will be given a high-speed rail briefing a week before the next meeting, which is set for March 14.


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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby IcedCowboyCoffee » 09 Feb 2024 10:54

Tnexster wrote:Sparring over Dallas-to-Houston high-speed rail station idles project funding talks
The monthly Regional Transportation Council meeting was again hijacked by tensions about a proposed Dallas-to-Houston bullet train.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/transpo ... ing-talks/

Also included in this discussion was this...

After a lengthy discussion, the funded projects and partnerships were ultimately approved as originally proposed by RTC staff.

In Dallas, those include the West Dallas Gateway Project, which would construct a roadway with sidewalks and bicycle lanes on Herbert Street under the Union Pacific Railroad line and provide access to Interstate 30; a pedestrian structure over I-30 at Harwood Street; improvements at Harry Hines and Mockingbird near Love Field, and several other infrastructure improvement projects.

Other notable projects selected for funding include assistance for new and replacement vehicles for the Trinity Railway Express and TEXRail lines; regional railroad safety crossing and traffic signal upgrade programs; improvements that would facilitate access to the Dallas County Inland Port at Belt Line Road and Sunrise Road; bond program partnerships in Tarrant and Parker counties and more.

RTC members will be given a high-speed rail briefing a week before the next meeting, which is set for March 14.



Changing the elevated route to an underground one could present logistical problems in easily connecting passengers to the elevated station – especially since the route would likely need to be built 17 stories deep. Moving the station also could put the brakes on the project.


I hope the council members asking for this really understand what it would mean for the project if its forced to go underground 17 stories. It doesn't hurt to explore the idea of it just to do your due diligence, but it's unrealistic financially and just unnecessary.
And, like the article mentions, don't mess with the proposed station site. Texas Central already went through all that leg work of getting that site approved. Why risk having to start over from scratch again when it's a perfectly fine and workable proposal as-is?

But thanks for the article. Guess we'll find out more in early March.

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby electricron » 10 Feb 2024 12:55

This is what happens with so much jealousy between Fort Worth and Dallas.
Texas Central gets an elevated station structure environmentally and federally approved in downtown Dallas, NCTCOG recommends an underground station in downtown Fort Worth, now Dallas also wants an underground station in downtown Dallas.
NCTCOG has messed everything up with an underground HSR station proposal in downtown Fort Worth.
Why not use the existing Fort Worth Central train station with additional surface platforms? Or add elevated platforms above the existing platforms or above the Santa Fe tracks immediately to the east?
These underground platforms add unnecessary costs not only in Fort Worth, but also in Dallas. Poor planning, imho!
Last edited by electricron on 11 Feb 2024 16:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby scott2 » 10 Feb 2024 14:51

Agree completely...... 17 levels underground? The only way to access the platform would be via elevator of course. Very expensive and adding what...maybe 15-20 minutes just to get down to the train as you wait for an elevator. I get claustrophobia just thinking about being that far underground.

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby tamtagon » 10 Feb 2024 21:00

HSR should not be used for interurban travel, nctcog is being weird. Fort Worth becomes a viable link to the Dallas station when the Austin, San Antonio and Monterrey line adds destinations other than Houston

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby Tnexster » 07 Mar 2024 09:38

Dallas officials are proving to be a hard sell on extending high-speed rail to Fort Worth
City Council members raised doubts Wednesday about the benefit to the city of the Dallas-to-Fort Worth rail line.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/transpo ... ort-worth/

Officials expressed doubts about the feasibility of a high-speed rail line between Dallas and Fort Worth during a Dallas City Council briefing Wednesday.

The project is “separate but complementary” to a Dallas-to-Houston connection that already has received environmental clearance. The larger project could be operated by passenger rail company Amtrak, which is heading up the effort to advance the 205-mile line. Both the Dallas-to-Houston rail line and the Fort Worth extension have yet to be funded.

Council members raised questions about the need for the 30-mile stretch connecting Dallas and Fort Worth, pointing to a lack of concrete economic benefits and the potential to harm downtown development. The council approved a “one-seat ride” in 2015, according to Regional Transportation Council director Michael Morris, but officials say that support predated both plans for a new Dallas convention center and the current council members’ tenure.

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby OrangeMike » 07 Mar 2024 11:15

Council member Paul Ridley is making way more sense about this than anything Michael Morris is spouting.

I think we have a responsibility nine years after that legislative agenda was passed to look at whether it still makes sense today. I doubt very much that even the 2015 council would have written a blank check in support of the one-seat ride at that time, and indeed would have put conditions on it that made sense to achieve that in terms of cost, practicality and actual improvement in travel times.”


We’ve got a 30-mile distance that people can traverse in 40 minutes by car, or use the current Trinity Railway Express to achieve their travel destination.


The jealousy in this scenario is coming from Morris and Tarrant County whining that they want a bullet train, too, and how unfair it is that Dallas might get one without them.

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby IcedCowboyCoffee » 07 Mar 2024 12:15

OrangeMike wrote:Council member Paul Ridley is making way more sense about this than anything Michael Morris is spouting.

I think we have a responsibility nine years after that legislative agenda was passed to look at whether it still makes sense today. I doubt very much that even the 2015 council would have written a blank check in support of the one-seat ride at that time, and indeed would have put conditions on it that made sense to achieve that in terms of cost, practicality and actual improvement in travel times.”


We’ve got a 30-mile distance that people can traverse in 40 minutes by car, or use the current Trinity Railway Express to achieve their travel destination.


The jealousy in this scenario is coming from Morris and Tarrant County whining that they want a bullet train, too, and how unfair it is that Dallas might get one without them.


It's a little disingenuous for him to cite the drive travel time without citing the TRE travel time. It's an additional 20 minutes. It's 50% more time than driving, and then you have to make the bus transfer when you get there for any of the big sites outside of downtown (Stockyards, zoo, botanic garden, the museum/cultural district, future panther island, etc, all 8~15 minute bus rides). Add it up and you're looking at at least an hour and a half, up to two hours before you actually get to where you want to go. Then there's the return trip: that's 3 to 4 hours of travel.

But 25 minutes highspeed rail to FW central station? That's cooking with oil. With the bus transfer included, you're getting to your destinations in the same time as driving, and much quicker than driving if you plan to stick to downtown. I, a Dallas resident, want this. Having easier access to stuff in Fort Worth makes remaining in Dallas that much more appealing. Their amenities become much more accessible to us.

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby GunnerDallas » 08 Mar 2024 08:04

And vice versa.

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby mhainli » 08 Mar 2024 08:37

IcedCowboyCoffee wrote:
OrangeMike wrote:Council member Paul Ridley is making way more sense about this than anything Michael Morris is spouting.

I think we have a responsibility nine years after that legislative agenda was passed to look at whether it still makes sense today. I doubt very much that even the 2015 council would have written a blank check in support of the one-seat ride at that time, and indeed would have put conditions on it that made sense to achieve that in terms of cost, practicality and actual improvement in travel times.”


We’ve got a 30-mile distance that people can traverse in 40 minutes by car, or use the current Trinity Railway Express to achieve their travel destination.


The jealousy in this scenario is coming from Morris and Tarrant County whining that they want a bullet train, too, and how unfair it is that Dallas might get one without them.


It's a little disingenuous for him to cite the drive travel time without citing the TRE travel time. It's an additional 20 minutes. It's 50% more time than driving, and then you have to make the bus transfer when you get there for any of the big sites outside of downtown (Stockyards, zoo, botanic garden, the museum/cultural district, future panther island, etc, all 8~15 minute bus rides). Add it up and you're looking at at least an hour and a half, up to two hours before you actually get to where you want to go. Then there's the return trip: that's 3 to 4 hours of travel.

But 25 minutes highspeed rail to FW central station? That's cooking with oil. With the bus transfer included, you're getting to your destinations in the same time as driving, and much quicker than driving if you plan to stick to downtown. I, a Dallas resident, want this. Having easier access to stuff in Fort Worth makes remaining in Dallas that much more appealing. Their amenities become much more accessible to us.

Yes, I don’t particularly care about what’s good for Fort Worth or Arlington, Dallas first, the Metroplex as a whole second. At first I opposed the HSR line to FW, thinking it (and future Austin/San Antonio link) was mostly to garner statewide political support for an HSR system. Also thought the Dallas-Houston (D-H) line was close to a done deal on its own merits. Now the Dallas-Houston line is far from a done deal and needs all the help it can get, both financially and politically (state leg and governor are now iffy at best on it). Having a Dallas to Fort Worth link helps the whole thing politically. If other urban centers are left out, no way their legislators will support D-H, which may eventually require a legislative vote of some sort and certainly support from the governor. IMO, bottom line is the D-H segment will not happen without plans for future links to FW and other metro areas. Financially, having the D-FW link obviously increases ridership and viability of the D-H link, as well as providing more riders back and forth within DFW (both for events and commuter type, as noted by IcedCowboyCoffee). This ridership and synergy helps every aspect (office, hotel, multi-family,etc) of the Hunt development.

Whatever people think of Michael Morris, he knows politics and how to get things done. He is correct in pursuing a Dallas to Fort Worth line (and D-H line) until it becomes obvious that they cannot be done for reasons stated above. Hopefully Hunt (and the Dallas City Council) will see that the economic benefits far outweigh the costs of having the Cedars HSR station as the focal point of a system vs the endpoint of one line. In addition, city of Dallas blanket opposition to an elevated line through Hunt development could indeed kill the city supported D-H line too per reasons above (D-H line becomes Dallas and Houston vs the rest of the state).

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby electricron » 08 Mar 2024 09:18

As I wrote before, it will be very expensive to get HSR between FW and D, which seems foolish because TRE already exists.
The TRE takes around an hour to do so. The proposed HSR line will take around 30 minutes.
So NCTCOG is proposing spending around $11 Billion to save around 30 minutes. That's $367 Million per minute saved.

I will repeat again, triple or quad tracking the TRE corridor would be cheaper, and with non-stop express trains, even at 79 mph max speeds, do so in the same 30 minutes.

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby IcedCowboyCoffee » 08 Mar 2024 11:44

GunnerDallas wrote:And vice versa.

Absolutely. If it's easier for us to get there, it's easier for them to get here. The more visitors downtown the better.
I love Dallas, but I also love Fort Worth and my desire to visit is at constant war with the deflating thought of physically getting myself over there and bringing myself back. It makes me wish I lived closer to the airport to split the difference. I'd imagine there are people in Fort Worth who want to visit our parks/restaurants/museums more often but experience the same feeling.

electricron wrote:So NCTCOG is proposing spending around $11 Billion to save around 30 minutes. That's $367 Million per minute saved.

When it comes to funding I think it's important to note a key factor in all this and that's Arlington. They've expressed desire in having this, which means if it does ever materialize it's only because Arlington actually got on board and is helping to foot the bill. It doesn't happen without them.

I won't pretend to know enough to claim any authority on this but I would imagine triple/quadruple tracking the TRE would be among the most expensive projects DART/TM ever attempted anyways, and that's without an Arlington helping out. Squeezing in an additional 35 mile rail corridor's worth of tracks next to an existing one is a much more intensive process than the double-track retrofitting we have typically done. I'm not saying it wouldn't be cheaper than the proposed HSR with all its tunneling etc, but I think the difference in financial burden for us wouldn't be quite as ginormous of a canyon we'd imagine.

But that's an aside to the real value I see in this over an upgraded TRE which is the addition of an Arlington stop. Just as I want easier access to Fort Worth I want easier access to Arlington as well. It's just another notch in living in downtown Dallas's favor instead of the northern burbs if you can get on a train for a fraction of the Arlington parking cost and get to a cowboys game or a rangers game in no time at all, drink to your hearts content, then ride back.

mhainli wrote:Financially, having the D-FW link obviously increases ridership and viability of the D-H link, as well as providing more riders back and forth within DFW

This really is a pretty critical piece.
When it comes to transportation, friction is everything, and spending a lot to reduce even a small bit of it pays off in dividends over time.
Without the FW hsr rail leg, if you're in the western half of the metroplex wanting to get to Houston by some means other than driving you honestly might as well get on a plane at DFW instead of hoofing it to downtown Dallas. Some folks will hoof it, but many won't. If you're taking transit you're killing a lot of time just getting to the cedars station then waiting for the transfer to happen. If a ton of these folks choose to drive to the dallas station, and if the dallas station really is meant to serve the entire metropolitan area (which it has to in order for the line itself to be viable), we have to build enough parking at the station to reflect that reality. But stretching the line to Arlington and Fort Worth provides more access points for more people.

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mhainli
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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby mhainli » 08 Mar 2024 12:09

electricron wrote:As I wrote before, it will be very expensive to get HSR between FW and D, which seems foolish because TRE already exists.
The TRE takes around an hour to do so. The proposed HSR line will take around 30 minutes.
So NCTCOG is proposing spending around $11 Billion to save around 30 minutes. That's $367 Million per minute saved.

I will repeat again, triple or quad tracking the TRE corridor would be cheaper, and with non-stop express trains, even at 79 mph max speeds, do so in the same 30 minutes.


I see your point. It’s a crazy expensive leg to build and may die for that reason (along with D-H line). However, there may be 4 reasons to extend the line to Fort Worth:
1) The new HSR route is better along I-30 than current TRE route. HSR route provides a stop in Arlington adjacent to the entertainment district. Arlington has every reason/incentive to pay for this station since they don’t contribute to a transit system.
2) Building to Fort Worth provides the all important one seat ride between Houston and FW. No getting off HSR to trek to TRE, waiting, etc.
3) Building to Fort Worth provides a place to connect to future HSR line to Austin/SA and still maintain one seat ride from SA to Dallas.
4) As noted above, there’s a risk losing statewide political support of HSR if it’s just a Dallas-Houston thing and political support may be more important than the funding. It’s unfortunate but the reality of the world we live in. If Fort Worth, Austin, SA politicos don’t see HSR in their future then they will likely oppose HSR altogether, which could kill the Dallas Houston line.

That’s my two cents. I wouldn’t be for this segment if it weren’t in Dallas best interests IMO. Completion of both segments could also increase future possibility of new arena, casino, etc being adjacent to convention center somewhere.

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The_Overdog
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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby The_Overdog » 08 Mar 2024 16:33

I don't think Arlington has the money to pay for a transit system unless they dramatically increase their property tax income or sales tax income. Property tax income is potentially possible; dramatically increasing their sales tax income is almost impossible.

I agree that something to turn HSR into a railline, which includes a leg between Dallas and Ft Worth, makes the longer Dallas to Houston more viable. It kinda sucks but that's the Florida Brightline model.

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby mhainli » 08 Mar 2024 16:46

The_Overdog wrote:I don't think Arlington has the money to pay for a transit system unless they dramatically increase their property tax income or sales tax income. Property tax income is potentially possible; dramatically increasing their sales tax income is almost impossible.

I agree that something to turn HSR into a railline, which includes a leg between Dallas and Ft Worth, makes the longer Dallas to Houston more viable. It kinda sucks but that's the Florida Brightline model.

After looking into it, Arlington passed a 1/4 cent sales tax increase back in 2020 that can pay for projects like a transit station, but don’t know how much has been committed.

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electricron
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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby electricron » 08 Mar 2024 21:52

mhainli wrote:
The_Overdog wrote:I don't think Arlington has the money to pay for a transit system unless they dramatically increase their property tax income or sales tax income. Property tax income is potentially possible; dramatically increasing their sales tax income is almost impossible.

I agree that something to turn HSR into a railline, which includes a leg between Dallas and Ft Worth, makes the longer Dallas to Houston more viable. It kinda sucks but that's the Florida Brightline model.

After looking into it, Arlington passed a 1/4 cent sales tax increase back in 2020 that can pay for projects like a transit station, but don’t know how much has been committed.

Do you know how much a quarter cent sales tax will generate in Arlington?
From https://www.arlingtontx.gov/common/page ... d=18334297
Arlington's total sales tax revenues was $73,778,424 in FY 2021, that's with a 2% of the 8.25% sales tax rate going to the city.
So divide that earlier number by 8 to calculate what a quarter cent sales tax will generate.
Math = $73,778,424 / 8 = $9,222,303.
Yes, $9 million plus per year will take over a hundred years to generate a $Billion in revenues for funding just a small part of a HSR line and station in Arlington.
There is a reason why DART wants a full cent sales tax rate. So it can bond enough cash to actually build something worthwhile with a 30 year bond program. FYI, before anyone questions my data, it came directly from the City of Arlington.

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mhainli
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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby mhainli » 08 Mar 2024 23:19

electricron wrote:
mhainli wrote:
The_Overdog wrote:I don't think Arlington has the money to pay for a transit system unless they dramatically increase their property tax income or sales tax income. Property tax income is potentially possible; dramatically increasing their sales tax income is almost impossible.

I agree that something to turn HSR into a railline, which includes a leg between Dallas and Ft Worth, makes the longer Dallas to Houston more viable. It kinda sucks but that's the Florida Brightline model.

After looking into it, Arlington passed a 1/4 cent sales tax increase back in 2020 that can pay for projects like a transit station, but don’t know how much has been committed.

Do you know how much a quarter cent sales tax will generate in Arlington?
From https://www.arlingtontx.gov/common/page ... d=18334297
Arlington's total sales tax revenues was $73,778,424 in FY 2021, that's with a 2% of the 8.25% sales tax rate going to the city.
So divide that earlier number by 8 to calculate what a quarter cent sales tax will generate.
Math = $73,778,424 / 8 = $9,222,303.
Yes, $9 million plus per year will take over a hundred years to generate a $Billion in revenues for funding just a small part of a HSR line and station in Arlington.
There is a reason why DART wants a full cent sales tax rate. So it can bond enough cash to actually build something worthwhile with a 30 year bond program. FYI, before anyone questions my data, it came directly from the City of Arlington.

I have no idea what an underground HSR station would cost or if Arlington has the capacity to fund it. Do know that such a station is on their radar and will do what it takes to pay for it if asked to.

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electricron
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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby electricron » 09 Mar 2024 19:14

mhainli wrote:
electricron wrote:
mhainli wrote:I have no idea what an underground HSR station would cost or if Arlington has the capacity to fund it. Do know that such a station is on their radar and will do what it takes to pay for it if asked to.

Yes, they coiuld take money out of their general funds, property and sales taxes and other fees.
But, what good will a train station along I-30 do when they do not have any bus services?
I doubt anyone will install 20,000+ rental bikes and or scooters at the station so tourists and sports fans can get to the various entertainment facilities near by, but not within walking distance.

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby zaphod » 10 Mar 2024 12:43

I don't think Arlington will ever be able to justify a high speed rail or any other new rail alignment based strictly on the I-30 corridor. I think that Cowboys Stadium and Globe Life Field and Six Flags have always done fine where they are and the first step to serving them with transit would just be running buses to the stadiums on game days only and see where that leads.

My idea is that we need a Tarrant County Transit Agency. It would have a relatively small budget and be lean, it wouldn't be a comprehensive network like Trinity Metro. It's funding would be more on an as needed basis.

It's purpose would be to be run a handful of fixed-route buses connecting to TRE/TexRail in areas not served by Trinity Metro and to help out with paratransit and subsidized ride-sharing services in those territories.

For example, Arlington would have maybe 2 fixed-route bus routes serving areas around UTA, Cooper Street, Pioneer Parkway, Lamar Ave, which have a very high density of low income apartment complexes and university students and jobs in retail and restaurants, all of which are sources of ridership.

I think there is also a justification for a bus route stretching from the North East Mall area in Hurst, through another concentration of apartment complexes, serving the TCC campus and it's students, and then connecting to Texrail in North Richland Hills.

Finally I think an express commuter service on I-30 would work using the toll/HOV lanes that exist already.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 10 Mar 2024 21:41

mhainli wrote:Financially, having the D-FW link obviously increases ridership and viability of the D-H link, as well as providing more riders back and forth within DFW (both for events and commuter type, as noted by IcedCowboyCoffee).


You're making an assumption that sounds logical but is probably 180 degrees off base. The more likely scenario is that this would end up like DART rail, where the marginal costs exceed marginal revenues, so the more riders you get the bigger the financial black hole. Do you remember when DART threatened to sue private bus companies that were dropping off people at the light rail stations because DART couldn't afford the extra passengers? It's just not realistic to assume that fares will come anywhere near covering operating costs.

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby zaphod » 12 Mar 2024 01:35

You're making an assumption that sounds logical but is probably 180 degrees off base. The more likely scenario is that this would end up like DART rail, where the marginal costs exceed marginal revenues, so the more riders you get the bigger the financial black hole. Do you remember when DART threatened to sue private bus companies that were dropping off people at the light rail stations because DART couldn't afford the extra passengers? It's just not realistic to assume that fares will come anywhere near covering operating costs.


Do you have a source for this? I'm very skeptical.

I could see this being a problem on paratransit or certain commuter bus routes where increased ridership would require assigning more vehicles, but not on rail or traditional fixed route bus lines. At worst, maybe for buses having more riders causes the bus to start and stop more frequently and consume more fuel, but you'd think they would take that into account.

The light rail trains run on a schedule regardless of whether or not anyone is on them, and seem to run in multi-car configuration at all hours. The network in general seems to have been built to a very fixed and unchanging capacity, which also is way higher than it's current utilization. The trains stop at every station, and they never dwell waiting for passengers so they do the exact same mileage every single day. They are made of steel and weigh a lot, so the weight of an additional human on board is negligible to energy consumption. They have to get cleaned no matter what every day. It's operations haven't changed but its' running at about 70% of what its ridership levels were before COVID. To me what that suggests is any additional rider on the train does not meaningfully increase costs and would have a net positive effect on fare box recovery.

Also, the trains can carry hundreds of passengers at cram loads. Private buses pulling up to DART stations all at once would not overflow the trains.

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby mhainli » 12 Mar 2024 16:35

Hannibal Lecter wrote:
mhainli wrote:Financially, having the D-FW link obviously increases ridership and viability of the D-H link, as well as providing more riders back and forth within DFW (both for events and commuter type, as noted by IcedCowboyCoffee).


You're making an assumption that sounds logical but is probably 180 degrees off base. The more likely scenario is that this would end up like DART rail, where the marginal costs exceed marginal revenues, so the more riders you get the bigger the financial black hole. Do you remember when DART threatened to sue private bus companies that were dropping off people at the light rail stations because DART couldn't afford the extra passengers? It's just not realistic to assume that fares will come anywhere near covering operating costs.

I agree, purely looking through lens of Dallas-Houston HSR viability, the extra cost of Dallas-Fort Worth line wouldn’t make sense. My points for being in favor of Dallas-Fort Worth line are multiple and should be taken as a whole: increases regional political support of HSR, provides future connection point to a Austin/San Antonio and thereby political support in 2 more metro areas, some transit ridership along DFW line, AND more riders on D-H line.

Let’s not forget the current problems the D-H line has: way over budget, lost political support from the state of Texas, lost funding participation (at least temporarily) from the Japanese government (some due to losing Governor Abbott support), bad publicity and lawsuits from landowners along the line. The recent interest of quasi-governmental Amtrak into the D-H line may eventually help federal funding, but hurt politically with red state Texas wanting the feds to leave us alone. That’s why Dallas-Fort Worth line and other future lines are important. The more metro areas in Texas that support HSR the better the statewide political climate and the more partnering opportunities with the Japanese government, etc.

To those worried about the cost of the D-FW line, there are many pots of money to draw from (some new) that wouldn’t necessarily compete with D-H line: regional money from NCTCOG, DART, T, Arlington (believe it!), Fort Worth. Perhaps new Transportation Reinvestment Zones used elsewhere in the country could help fund stations. Michael Morris (NCTCOG) probably understands the funding and political challenges of all of the HSR lines (and how they’re linked) far more than Dallas City Council or DMN editorial board. Not sure what the chances are for any of the HSR lines, but IMHO the D-H line will eventually die unless plans for future D-FW line and other possible routes are underway. For D-FW line it means a compromise for some kind for a one seat ride option from Houston to Dallas to Fort Worth.

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby The_Overdog » 13 Mar 2024 09:16

I've never seen any data that says the NCTCOG or Michael Morris specifically understands or cares about any aspect of any transportation project in DFW. They 'care' to the extent that they can get additional money to keep them and their constituents funded and relevant. Beyond that...space elevator, giant skateboard ramp to Houston? They don't care.

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Re: Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

Postby OrangeMike » 13 Mar 2024 13:46

The_Overdog wrote:I've never seen any data that says the NCTCOG or Michael Morris specifically understands or cares about any aspect of any transportation project in DFW. They 'care' to the extent that they can get additional money to keep them and their constituents funded and relevant. Beyond that...space elevator, giant skateboard ramp to Houston? They don't care.


Exactly. And when they do "care" enough to meddle in something, it's almost always going to benefit suburbs at the expense of Dallas. Morris lied about the Trinity Toll Road for years on end but it made for lots of studies and presentations by NCTCOG about how the Mixmaster redo was completely dependent on that toll road being built inside the levees. Now the COG wants to tunnel an unnecessary bullet train halfway across Tarrant County before making it scar the skyline in Dallas, which a cynic would say is just another boondoggle to justify their existence.

[ETA: It was only two years ago that they decided, gee, maybe a hyperloop isn't going to be a realistic option to continue studying. WTF. https://thetexan.news/texas-local-news/ ... 93e22.html]

D Magazine from five years ago. Thomas is gone now but this article is still apt.
https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/ ... of-sprawl/

Analysis of how entities like NCTCOG give suburban areas an outsized voice.
https://www.americanprogress.org/articl ... nizations/