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DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

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undefinedprocess
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby undefinedprocess » 21 May 2021 09:18

Somehow, I just learned of the Dallas Water Gardens project, as well as some of the renders showing development bordering it. Obviously, that's all speculative, but from the info I've received and looked through now, there's a connection with the HSR project? Not in a physical sense, but in a financial, waiting til-it's-complete sense...

Do y'all agree? Many were also saying the same thing was going on with the Texas Odyssey (that 500+ ft. tall observation wheel).

If Texas Central does happen (which I hope it does), do y'all think Riverfront will bow up and these projects will get underway? Are these developers waiting on the HSR as others have speculated/indicated, or is it more likely that they're just dead period?

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tnexster » 21 May 2021 10:38

Water garden project sounded really nice, wish that would proceed either way.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby potatocoins » 21 May 2021 10:40

I do feel like a lot of projects in this area will remain on hold until the rail station actually breaks ground.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby undefinedprocess » 21 May 2021 12:51

Tnexster wrote:Water garden project sounded really nice, wish that would proceed either way.


Agreed, it'd 100% be transformative for the area, regardless of the HSR.

potatocoins wrote:I do feel like a lot of projects in this area will remain on hold until the rail station actually breaks ground.


Sadly, I agree with you. I genuinely don't understand it, as the area is hungry for development and the HSR won't do all that much for activity in my opinion, but then again, I don't know what I"m saying.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Redblock » 15 Jun 2021 11:47

Texas Central announced today that they have signed a $16B construction contract for the Dallas-Houston HSR line.

https://communityimpact.com/houston/cy- ... l-project/

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby quixomniac » 15 Jun 2021 15:42

undefinedprocess wrote:Sadly, I agree with you. I genuinely don't understand it, as the area is hungry for development and the HSR won't do all that much for activity in my opinion, but then again, I don't know what I"m saying.

That’s where I disagree with you, the HSR station, depending on its success, will serve as an anchoring point for development. Look at the offices, hotels, restaurants within and around airports. Irving is basically one giant office park surrounding DFW. Depending on its success, everyone will be jockeying for the best plots of land around it. They’ll figure out which to set aside for the water gardens in order to both maximize and compliment potential developments.
Redblock wrote:Texas Central announced today that they have signed a $16B construction contract for the Dallas-Houston HSR line.

https://communityimpact.com/houston/cy- ... l-project/

Sounds great!

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby undefinedprocess » 16 Jun 2021 09:52

quixomniac wrote:
undefinedprocess wrote:Sadly, I agree with you. I genuinely don't understand it, as the area is hungry for development and the HSR won't do all that much for activity in my opinion, but then again, I don't know what I"m saying.

That’s where I disagree with you, the HSR station, depending on its success, will serve as an anchoring point for development. Look at the offices, hotels, restaurants within and around airports. Irving is basically one giant office park surrounding DFW. Depending on its success, everyone will be jockeying for the best plots of land around it. They’ll figure out which to set aside for the water gardens in order to both maximize and compliment potential developments.
Redblock wrote:Texas Central announced today that they have signed a $16B construction contract for the Dallas-Houston HSR line.

https://communityimpact.com/houston/cy- ... l-project/

Sounds great!

First things first, that construction contract being signed... That's pretty big, right? Hopefully shows that this thing may actually happen..?

Secondly, there was a post on IG from the DMN regarding the contract being signed, and woah, the comments under it. I'd say 90% or more of the comments were so against this HSR, and really any, happening in Texas... And before anyone makes any assumptions, I did some light detective work and found it was people on both sides of the political aisle, all walks of life... I don't get why so many people are so against Texas Central? I'm cautious and really dread this thing falling through, as many on here have echoed, but I still want it to happen... Guess that's a different discussion.

As far as you disagreeing with me, I'd have to agree with you. Didn't really explain myself well. Regardless, I hope the Water Gardens get underway sooner than later, as well as other development around there. It's a shame that so much potential all rides on the HSR terminus coming online, making me even more anxious to see Texas Central pull this off.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby texasstar » 16 Jun 2021 13:40

I am totally baffled why anyone would be against a high-speed rail line between the major Texas cities. Well, anyone NOT named Southwest Airlines.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby quixomniac » 16 Jun 2021 15:55

undefinedprocess wrote:Secondly, there was a post on IG from the DMN regarding the contract being signed, and woah, the comments under it. I'd say 90% or more of the comments were so against this HSR, and really any, happening in Texas...

texasstar wrote:I am totally baffled why anyone would be against a high-speed rail line between the major Texas cities. Well, anyone NOT named Southwest Airlines.

There’s a large vocal component of the population on the internet who reflexively react to any spending with scorn. They basically want things to always be the same. No change. Never. Change bad. And they always something along the lines of, “what a waste of MY taxpayer money” And in this particular case, they are misinformed. This is a mostly private venture.

In addition to airlines, I’d also add gas station owners, fast food chain franchisees and other members of the hospitality sector along the Dallas-Houston corridor. There are a lot of people who have alot of money in things staying as they are, and they will use property owners (who have legitimate concerns) as a shield to try to choke this HSR in its crib.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby tamtagon » 16 Jun 2021 16:02

Traffic along this corridor is going to increase just like the population of both cities... The amount of potential revenue lost by businesses along the way because of the train is not significant.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 16 Jun 2021 16:47

Yeah people in Texas will still be buying F250's and driving to Austin, San Antonio and Houston. Texas Central is betting on business Travelers who already use planes not gas stations. Texas Central doesn't care as much about the lets go to Austin crowd for he weekend as they care about the business traveler whos company will pay for round trip tickets on the regular. Lord knows the Airlines have also been hiding behind farmers to kill this thing too. Despite the fact the Airlines, Railways and Roads will all see increases in traffic. Forcing people to sit in stopped traffic on 45 to Houston does not drive hotel room stays or huge increases in purchases of Redbull at the gas station on the way. Creating frictionless travel between the two economies in Houston and Dallas just fuels more growth. This is no different than pulling 18 wheelers off and giving them their own highway. Will the airlines see a dip possibly temporarily but this only goes to Houston. If we are lucky maybe they will want to expand to the other Texas cities. If you cant compete with a high speed train what kind of buggy whip company are you running.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby quixomniac » 16 Jun 2021 16:56

tamtagon wrote:Traffic along this corridor is going to increase just like the population of both cities... The amount of potential revenue lost by businesses along the way because of the train is not significant.

That’s a fair counter, and probably right as this train is aimed at “super commuters” or people who travel weekly if not daily. Truck drivers (18 wheelers) will still be on the roads. But fear, not facts, IMO is the prime motivation behind those attacking HSR.

Frankly, I’m still upset that the Houston Terminal isn’t in downtown. But that’s another discussion. Houston is denser towards the north, while South Dallas is not dense at all.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby undefinedprocess » 17 Jun 2021 09:04

quixomniac wrote:
tamtagon wrote:Traffic along this corridor is going to increase just like the population of both cities... The amount of potential revenue lost by businesses along the way because of the train is not significant.

That’s a fair counter, and probably right as this train is aimed at “super commuters” or people who travel weekly if not daily. Truck drivers (18 wheelers) will still be on the roads. But fear, not facts, IMO is the prime motivation behind those attacking HSR.

Frankly, I’m still upset that the Houston Terminal isn’t in downtown. But that’s another discussion. Houston is denser towards the north, while South Dallas is not dense at all.

Yeah, the Houston terminus being 5 miles outside of downtown is a joke, but hey, knowing Houston, they'll pop up a new skyline around it within years. :lol:

As far as Dallas goes, I'm glad it'll be on the south side. I think it compliments the direction that much of that side of the core is going, and hey, anything going the tiniest bit south and not north in the metroplex is a win, right?

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby quixomniac » 17 Jun 2021 18:48

undefinedprocess wrote:Yeah, the Houston terminus being 5 miles outside of downtown is a joke, but hey, knowing Houston, they'll pop up a new skyline around it within years. :lol:

As far as Dallas goes, I'm glad it'll be on the south side. I think it compliments the direction that much of that side of the core is going, and hey, anything going the tiniest bit south and not north in the metroplex is a win, right?


That is also true. We have alot to learn from them regarding fast development growth. But they also dont have anything planned to the HSR station other than rapid bus transit. Which is ridiculous, who wants to be stuck in Houston traffic on a bus? I suppose they are waiting until it gets built, they dont even have connections to the airport. Which goes to show who they expect to use HSR, not tourists, but business class travelers who will have taxis waiting on them at the other end.
8D2499CC-59D1-4F38-BA9E-8614E38DFF4A.jpeg

Lastly, HSR at Cedars is a shoddy compromise at best. I dont see how they couldn’t have moved it 100 feet across the highway to Dart union station.. I mean. It’s in the name!!!
Probably real estate magnates wrestling over who gets most ROI on land they’ve been squatting on. *sigh
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby electricron » 17 Jun 2021 21:08

quixomniac wrote:Lastly, HSR at Cedars is a shoddy compromise at best. I dont see how they couldn’t have moved it 100 feet across the highway to Dart union station.. I mean. It’s in the name!!!
Probably real estate magnates wrestling over who gets most ROI on land they’ve been squatting on. *sigh

The HSR station at Cedars is going to have two islands with four platforms with each platform having its own track initially, with a potential third island with two more platforms and tracks added later. Where nearer Union Station can you install six more tracks with three more islands? Which are willing to tear down to make that room, the hotel with reunion tower or union stations itself, or both?

Of course real estate magnets are fighting over land near the new HSR station locale.
Check out the developments that sprung up around Victory Station and the AT&T Arena. I remember a grain elevators, old steam power plant, and a newspaper recycling warehouse were located there as recently as the 1990s. That area has completely made some real estate magnets, and the city itself, lots of cash in rents and taxes. Will the same results occur near Cedars, only the Shadow knows?

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby quixomniac » 17 Jun 2021 22:10

electricron wrote:Where nearer Union Station can you install six more tracks with three more islands?

There are tons of empty/abandoned lots next to the convention center, reunion arena.etc. It didnt have to be part of union station, but just over that last hump, past the barrier which is the highway, and it would have made all the difference.
During the initial stages, Texas Central had 2 sites picked, one was next to the convention center, but alas they decided to go with the Cedars one.
My comment about real estate people wrestling each other, is not about them trying to outbid each other, but rather not working together for the the betterment of the city.

Perhaps the existing railways didnt want to have neighbors, or maybe TxDOT didnt want another bridge in that area, or maybe the appropriate bridge was too expensive
Or maybe someone else can comment on what happened? I cant find the early studies
This is an old article circa 2015.
https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news ... allas.html

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby quixomniac » 17 Jun 2021 23:04

lakewoodhobo wrote:City Hall received an update on HSR today that you can read here:

https://dallascityhall.com/government/C ... 100818.pdf

Most interesting to me is a request for a feasibility study into building a new multi-modal facility on the city-owned Lot E between I-30 and the Convention Center.

Screen Shot 2018-10-08 at 2.55.19 PM.jpg


Or perhaps I mixed up the components. Sometimes it’s easier to find things on this forum than on other websites. Instead of moving the HSR closer to union, they wanted to move the transit hub closer to HSR , across the highway, next to the convention center.
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby THRILLHO » 18 Jun 2021 14:21

quixomniac wrote:Or perhaps I mixed up the components. Sometimes it’s easier to find things on this forum than on other websites. Instead of moving the HSR closer to union, they wanted to move the transit hub closer to HSR , across the highway, next to the convention center.


This would still be incredible, and would make the connections more cohesive like they often are in Japan. I hope it can still happen.
Shift TRE/Amtrak/DART station down, create a new mixed-use retail/hotel space that envelopes it, and the HSR would just be an air-conditioned walk over I-30 away. Sounds great.

Then turn Union Station into a library or some other civic space.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby ajderry2017 » 18 Jun 2021 22:31

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcdfw ... 092/%3famp

Courts refused to hear Texas Central case. We’re inching closer and closer! Now we just need the feds to pass this infrastructure bill.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby electricron » 19 Jun 2021 07:42

quixomniac wrote:Or perhaps I mixed up the components. Sometimes it’s easier to find things on this forum than on other websites. Instead of moving the HSR closer to union, they wanted to move the transit hub closer to HSR , across the highway, next to the convention center.

That's just a study for moving the hub closer to the HSR station, looking at all the impacts, there are no hard plans on paper to do so. Never-the-less, a study is the first step in the process to make the plans and build the projects.

Water Park in floodway, Deck Park over I-30, Ferris Wheel, Convention Center expansions, redevelopments near Cedars, etc. There is far more room south of the Convention Center for a transportation hub than at Union Station where developments have hemmed it in.

Another thing they could study and do, probably saving millions if not billions of dollars, is extend the Oak Cliff streetcar down Hotel Street to at least the HSR station, if not further south. That alone will provide the connection travellers need between Union Station and the HSR Station.

Are you like me tired of not having a name for the HSR Station? Is Dallas HSR Station sufficient? Or Hotel Street Station? Anyone else have name suggestions?

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 19 Jun 2021 08:39

Call it what it is.. Texas Central Station....

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby tamtagon » 19 Jun 2021 10:14

electricron wrote:
quixomniac wrote:... Instead of moving the HSR closer to union, they wanted to move the transit hub closer to HSR , across the highway, next to the convention center.

That's just a study for moving the hub closer to the HSR station, looking at all the impacts, there are no hard plans on paper to do so. Never-the-less, a study is the first step in the process to make the plans and build the projects....


If the Union Station platforms were protected from the elements, I would agree it's the best all-destination transit hub. Since it's not, building from scratch is better.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby I45Tex » 19 Jun 2021 10:18

But if the HSR is coming in on elevated pylons in any case, and the unprotected Union platforms are at grade, let's get a twofer and level up by protecting those from the elements with the HSR platforms by building them in the air rights overhead. That's a longterm good design move.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby quixomniac » 19 Jun 2021 14:36

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Call it what it is.. Texas Central Station....

It’s a badass name.
I’d take it to make sure no one else in Texas gets it 8-)

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tucy » 19 Jun 2021 15:13

electricron wrote:
quixomniac wrote:Or perhaps I mixed up the components. Sometimes it’s easier to find things on this forum than on other websites. Instead of moving the HSR closer to union, they wanted to move the transit hub closer to HSR , across the highway, next to the convention center.

That's just a study for moving the hub closer to the HSR station, looking at all the impacts, there are no hard plans on paper to do so. Never-the-less, a study is the first step in the process to make the plans and build the projects.


That study was proposed more than 2 1/2 years ago. Did it get done? Did we see results?

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tucy » 19 Jun 2021 15:15

quixomniac wrote:
That is also true. We have alot to learn from them regarding fast development growth. But they also dont have anything planned to the HSR station other than rapid bus transit. Which is ridiculous, who wants to be stuck in Houston traffic on a bus?


The Houston plan is for full BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) with dedicated lanes. The buses will not be stuck in Houston traffic.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby quixomniac » 19 Jun 2021 20:12

Tucy wrote:
quixomniac wrote:The Houston plan is for full BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) with dedicated lanes. The buses will not be stuck in Houston traffic.

Thats true in theory. On the streets, BRT has dedicated lanes/stops, and priority at street lights. But once it hits the highway, it will just use HOV lanes with other cars. And if my experience with DART and HOV lanes is similar, you can still get stuck in traffic there. not nearly as often, but still possible. But HOV traffic is the worst. You cant even get out!

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tucy » 19 Jun 2021 23:22

quixomniac wrote:
Tucy wrote:
quixomniac wrote:The Houston plan is for full BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) with dedicated lanes. The buses will not be stuck in Houston traffic.

Thats true in theory. On the streets, BRT has dedicated lanes/stops, and priority at street lights. But once it hits the highway, it will just use HOV lanes with other cars. And if my experience with DART and HOV lanes is similar, you can still get stuck in traffic there. not nearly as often, but still possible. But HOV traffic is the worst. You cant even get out!


Not true. The first line being developed (which also happens to be the line that would serve the HSR station) will use a new facility that will be exclusive to buses. The Inner Katy project. The University Line will also use an exclusive facility in the Southwest Freeway corridor (not in HOV lanes). The other lines are not far enough along to know for sure but exclusive, bus-only, facilities are certainly the preferred option for Metro.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby quixomniac » 24 Jun 2021 00:58

Tucy wrote:Not true. The first line being developed (which also happens to be the line that would serve the HSR station) will use a new facility that will be exclusive to buses. The Inner Katy project. The University Line will also use an exclusive facility in the Southwest Freeway corridor (not in HOV lanes). The other lines are not far enough along to know for sure but exclusive, bus-only, facilities are certainly the preferred option for Metro.

I stand corrected, I assumed Houston Metro would use HOV lanes like Dart does. Theyve gone above and beyond and are proposing isolated HOV lanes strictly for the buses only in all the concepts for the Katy Corridor connecting to HSR. It's probably way more expensive, but absolutely the correct way to go about it. It should make for a relatively smooth connection from HSR to downtown Houston. Ideally it should be made convertible to Metro rail in the future too ;)
Screen Shot 2021-06-24 at 12.48.12 AM.png

https://ftp.txdot.gov/pub/txdot/get-inv ... tation.pdf
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby electricron » 26 Jun 2021 08:34

Maybe I am blind, but I fail to see how a rapid transit line built above one freeway services passengers near another freeway more than a mile away "directly". I-10 and US-290 are not physically the same freeway.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tucy » 27 Jun 2021 09:13

electricron wrote:Maybe I am blind, but I fail to see how a rapid transit line built above one freeway services passengers near another freeway more than a mile away "directly". I-10 and US-290 are not physically the same freeway.


The transitway will connect directly to the current Northwest Transit Center and, if and when it is built, to the Texas Central station.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tnexster » 09 Sep 2021 09:40

CEO: Building Texas bullet train hinges on Congress passing bipartisan infrastructure bill
Texas Central CEO Carlos Aguilar says the bipartisan infrastructure bill is expected to create low-interest, long-term loans for major infrastructure projects like the train.

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news ... 0#cxrecs_s

Texas Central, which maintains that it will be entirely privately funded, will not ask for a federal grant or any tax money to begin the project, Aguilar said. Instead, he explained, the bipartisan infrastructure bill is expected to create low-interest, long-term loans for major infrastructure projects like the train.

“Our target has always been loans,” Aguilar added on the podcast. “It is focused, as I said on the long-term debt that is available through, for example, the RRIF program out of the U.S. Department of Transportation. And that's what you need to build large infrastructure.”


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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 09 Sep 2021 13:14

So if/when it goes belly up the taxpayers get left holding the bag.

Until now I've supported the project. Not anymore.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby potatocoins » 10 Sep 2021 08:14

What in the ‘bait and switch’ hell this? I guess their plan was to get the buzz out for years and years until the general public think it’s happening and want it to happen, and then throw out this “small detail” out there.

As badly as I want a HSR, I hate that we were mislead about this aspect.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 10 Sep 2021 17:26

potatocoins wrote:What in the ‘bait and switch’ hell this? I guess their plan was to get the buzz out for years and years until the general public think it’s happening and want it to happen, and then throw out this “small detail” out there.

As badly as I want a HSR, I hate that we were mislead about this aspect.


What does the Business Journal article say about them wanting tax dollars? I can't see the article.

From what I read here:
https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/in ... ix-months/

They're seeking a low interest 12B loan from the US govt. And financing the rest w/ Euro/Japanese banks.

I can't imagine that these sort projects get kicked off with out some help from the federal govt.

If we're being pessimistic about them defaulting then.. that's completely different.

Didn't they pass a legalisation that this project can't get funding from Texan tax dollars?

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tnexster » 11 Sep 2021 20:34

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
potatocoins wrote:What in the ‘bait and switch’ hell this? I guess their plan was to get the buzz out for years and years until the general public think it’s happening and want it to happen, and then throw out this “small detail” out there.

As badly as I want a HSR, I hate that we were mislead about this aspect.


What does the Business Journal article say about them wanting tax dollars? I can't see the article.

From what I read here:
https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/in ... ix-months/

They're seeking a low interest 12B loan from the US govt. And financing the rest w/ Euro/Japanese banks.

I can't imagine that these sort projects get kicked off with out some help from the federal govt.

If we're being pessimistic about them defaulting then.. that's completely different.

Didn't they pass a legalisation that this project can't get funding from Texan tax dollars?


A little more....

But that $12-billion in loans from the infrastructure bill makes up about half of the remaining funding that’s necessary.

“The hard cost of this is about $24 billion. That is the cost of building this, setting it up and doing the start-up, installing all the equipment, and ensuring that you can get to commercial operations,” Aguilar continued.

For months, Texas Central has publicly stated that construction is projected to begin at the end of 2021 or 2022. But Aguilar said that the timeline remains fluid.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby electricron » 14 Sep 2021 07:15

What are RRIF loans?
The Railroad Rehabilitation and Improvement Financing (RRIF) program is a program established in the United States by the passage of the Transportation Equity Act for the 21st Century (TEA-21). Under the RRIF program, funds can be made available for the development or improvement of railroad infrastructure. The Federal Railroad Administration can provide direct loans or loan guarantees of amounts up to $35 billion to state or local governments, railroads, government sponsored companies, or railroad joint ventures.
Read more at https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R44028.pdf

What are TIFIA loans?
The Transportation Infrastructure Finance and Innovation Act (TIFIA) program was authorized in 1998. The program was created because state and local governments that sought to finance large-scale transportation projects with tolls and other forms of user-backed revenue often had difficulty obtaining financing at reasonable rates due to the uncertainties associated with these revenue streams.

Obviously, Texas Central RR would not qualify for TIFIA, but DART could and did use it.
Texas Central could qualify for the RRIF program. All it takes is a willing Department of Transportation. If Biden DOT will not, who will ever?

As for Texas Central changing tactics?
Texas Central Railway, as of January 30, 2018, another page says “the project will explore all forms of capital available to private companies to finance debt for the project, including federal loan programs like RRIF and TIFIA.” https://www.texascentral.com/rumors-vs- ... financing/.

That was over 3 years ago!

So why Texas Central using the RRIF loan program is not considered using Federal revenues?
The RRIF program is designed to operate at no cost to the government. Applicants are charged a fee of 0.5% of the amount requested to cover the cost of processing their applications. Borrowers are charged another fee (the credit risk premium) at the time a loan is issued to cover the potential cost to the government of the loan not being repaid. The amount of the credit risk premium is based on several factors, including the financial condition of the applicant and the amount of collateral securing the loan.
This no-cost-to-the-government structure is why it was not controversial for Congress to raise the maximum outstanding loan amount from $3.5 billion to $35 billion in 2005. But the up-front costs of a RRIF loan may deter would-be applicants. By contrast, the other major DOT credit assistance program, established in the Transportation Infrastructure Finance and Innovation Act (TIFIA), covers the cost of the credit risk premium for loan recipients (known as TIFIA’s subsidy cost). For private loans, the processing costs and credit risk premium typically are folded into the loan repayment schedule rather than being charged up front.

Now, let's assume the worse. Texas Central declares bankruptcy 8 years after initiating train services. What does the Federal government do with 240 miles of HSR tracks and three HSR train stations in Texas? Abandon it to rot in place, or give it all to Amtrak? But wouldn't that costs the taxpayers many $Billions? Not on paper, because the railroad itself was the collateral which is worth money on paper, and the upfront payments paid for all the losses faced by DOT. USDOT only loses money if they let the railroad rot in place. I'm pretty sure Amtrak will more than be happy assuming the train services at no additional costs.

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TNWE
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby TNWE » 14 Sep 2021 10:32

electricron wrote:Now, let's assume the worse. Texas Central declares bankruptcy 8 years after initiating train services. What does the Federal government do with 240 miles of HSR tracks and three HSR train stations in Texas? Abandon it to rot in place, or give it all to Amtrak? But wouldn't that costs the taxpayers many $Billions? Not on paper, because the railroad itself was the collateral which is worth money on paper, and the upfront payments paid for all the losses faced by DOT. USDOT only loses money if they let the railroad rot in place. I'm pretty sure Amtrak will more than be happy assuming the train services at no additional costs.


Amtrak might want to assume operations, but like so many government-funded services, the issue is usually not on the capital side (building stuff) but rather the operational side (running it).

If Texas Central goes bankrupt, it's because their business plan and ridership estimates were off - in short, they couldn't operate the line profitably. If they couldn't, what makes you think Amtrak could? If the argument is that Amtrak doesn't have to make a profit, or that the wouldn't be saddled with the debt burden the way TCR was, then this is just a backdoor way to taxpayer-funded HSR - remember, in this scenario the DOT effectively paid billions for an asset that can only operate at a loss.

Put another way, suppose all the anti-highway lunatics get their way and pass a bill saying the government can't fund any new urban freeway projects, so I get some investors together to build a trinity toll road to bypass the hot mess that is post-345 removal downtown Dallas, using that same loophole that USDOT Loan programs =/= "government funding." If that road project can't pay its debt service and the government claims it as collateral, do they put up barricades and close the road? Or keep it open and eat the maintenance costs because it's there and some people want to use it?

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tnexster » 24 Sep 2021 16:38

I don't know if I see this thing actually happening. The other thing is the technology being used, isn't a maglev trying being tossed around on the east coast? I know thats probably more expensive but also faster.

https://northeastmaglev.com

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The_Overdog
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby The_Overdog » 24 Sep 2021 16:45

Or keep it open and eat the maintenance costs because it's there and some people want to use it?
Top


That's not really a theoretical. Private entities build stuff regularly and the government takes them over if they feel they are valuable. Neighborhood streets in newer master-planned communities are an example. Those neighborhood walls in most of the suburbs surrounding DFW are another. They are both explicitly stated as supposed to be privately funded but cities find them useful so they fund the maintenance.

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electricron
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby electricron » 25 Sep 2021 07:58

Tnexster wrote:I don't know if I see this thing actually happening. The other thing is the technology being used, isn't a maglev trying being tossed around on the east coast? I know thats probably more expensive but also faster.

https://northeastmaglev.com

Yes, meglev is both more expensive and faster.
But Texas Central calculates that it does not need to be faster than HSR. That Dallas to Houston in less than 90 minutes is fast enough to corner the market.

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TNWE
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby TNWE » 27 Sep 2021 10:32

The_Overdog wrote:
Or keep it open and eat the maintenance costs because it's there and some people want to use it?
Top


That's not really a theoretical. Private entities build stuff regularly and the government takes them over if they feel they are valuable. Neighborhood streets in newer master-planned communities are an example. Those neighborhood walls in most of the suburbs surrounding DFW are another. They are both explicitly stated as supposed to be privately funded but cities find them useful so they fund the maintenance.


In most master-planned developments, that handover of maintenance is usually part of the overall development agreement laid out in advance - the developer might build the roads and other public services at their expense as each phase begins (rather than being beholden to the city timelines, planning meetings, and budget cycles) then hand over maintenance once all the homes and businesses are occupied and paying property taxes to the city.

That's very different than a private entity saying "we don't need government funding, we don't want government funding" for years, then suddenly asking for $10B in government loans to construct something that may or may not turn a profit, and if it doesn't the fed government gets it as collateral to either 1) sit idle or 2) run at a loss using taxpayer funds. This strikes me as a desperate ploy by the Biden admin to get a HSR line built and running before the California HSR debacle completely kills public opinion, and as long as it gets built and run for at least ~6 months as a "private" company, TCR can go bankrupt and they can go on CNN and say "well private enterprise failed and now we need to let Amtrak take over"

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The_Overdog
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby The_Overdog » 27 Sep 2021 12:22

In most master-planned developments, that handover of maintenance is usually part of the overall development agreement laid out in advance - the developer might build the roads and other public services at their expense as each phase begins (rather than being beholden to the city timelines, planning meetings, and budget cycles) then hand over maintenance once all the homes and businesses are occupied and paying property taxes to the city.

Not in most cases, they are not. I just said they are explicitly stated as being private roads and maintained by the HOA. But I get it -this was just another one of your stupid rants against all your made up enemies. Sorry for replying.

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electricron
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby electricron » 02 Oct 2021 06:26

The_Overdog wrote:
In most master-planned developments, that handover of maintenance is usually part of the overall development agreement laid out in advance - the developer might build the roads and other public services at their expense as each phase begins (rather than being beholden to the city timelines, planning meetings, and budget cycles) then hand over maintenance once all the homes and businesses are occupied and paying property taxes to the city.

Not in most cases, they are not. I just said they are explicitly stated as being private roads and maintained by the HOA. But I get it -this was just another one of your stupid rants against all your made up enemies. Sorry for replying.

Stop with the name calling. You can call their ideas stupid, but we should not be calling each other stupid.
An excellent example of a private road turning into a public road in the DFW area was the DFW Turnpike, I-30 between downtown Dallas and downtown Fort Worth. Did TXDOT refuse to maintain it after the Turnpike Authority gave them ownership of it?
It is not all that important how frequently private to public ownership occurs, it is important to recognize that it does occur.

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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Tnexster » 13 Oct 2021 12:06

Developers plan bullet train rail station south of downtown Dallas
The rail terminal on Riverfront Boulevard would serve a proposed high-speed train line to Houston.

The rail station would be just part of a much larger multi-block mixed-use development Matthews plans in the area between the Trinity River and Lamar Street.

Proposals for the district include everything from residential buildings, to offices, retail and hotels. Architects Perkins & Will and Omniplan have done preliminary designs for the big south side development.

Matthews is also a partner in the proposed redevelopment of the nearby former Dallas Morning News buildings on the south side of downtown.


https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... wn-dallas/

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Addison
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby Addison » 14 Oct 2021 09:00

I think a MMTS that incorporates the D2 subway, Dallas <---> Houston HSR and DART's current light rail system would definitely be a game changer for downtown.

Still missing the DNT rail/light rail line though.

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undefinedprocess
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Re: DALLAS to HOUSTON High Speed Rail

Postby undefinedprocess » 15 Oct 2021 10:51

Addison wrote:I think a MMTS that incorporates the D2 subway, Dallas <---> Houston HSR and DART's current light rail system would definitely be a game changer for downtown.

Still missing the DNT rail/light rail line though.

Don't forget the streetcar. :)


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