Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Dallas Area Rapid Transit

User avatar
TNWE
Posts: 348
Joined: 03 May 2017 09:42

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby TNWE » 25 Jan 2021 13:40

northsouth wrote:https://www.dart.org/about/inmotion/winter21/2.asp

Current projected opening dates for projects under construction:
-Hidden Ridge Station - first half of this year
-Platform Extensions - late fall of this year
-Silver Line - March 2023


Already, 16 stations have been completed, and another six are under construction. The following stations are not yet under construction, but soon will be:
8th & Corinth Red/Blue
SMU/Mockingbird Red/Blue
Westmoreland Red
LBJ/Skillman Blue
Downtown Garland Blue
Tyler/Vernon Red

Obviously with COVID capacity hasn't been an issue, but it's a little frustrating that DART apparently didn't plan to sequence construction in a way that could allow at least some lines to operate 3-car sets while they were working on other stations - basically finish the shared stations first, then the Red line northern section, then the red line southern section.

Absent COVID, the north central section would still be still have been jam-packed as ever at rush hour, and even being able to make the Orange line rush hour trains 3-car would have helped massively. Any construction management folks on here know why DART would do this work in haphazard order instead of trying to deliver sections with independent utility ASAP?

User avatar
northsouth
Posts: 109
Joined: 26 Oct 2016 18:59

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 25 Jan 2021 19:13

I know they separated out the stations into separate construction packages to be bid on separately - north Red, north Blue, south Red, south Blue, and shared. I agree that they should've prioritized Mockingbird, since it and Cityplace are the only two from the shared group that when combined with the north Red package, allow a new line to operate 3 car trains all the way through.

User avatar
electricron
Posts: 365
Joined: 29 Oct 2016 11:07

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby electricron » 26 Jan 2021 08:08

Someone at DART can not do math.
A quote under the photo from DART's internet page on construction projects, photo for platform extensions to be specific.
"Platform extensions will add 33% to DART Rail's passenger capacity, in effect increasing service levels during peak operating times."

Did you read 33% increase when it should read 50% increase?

When you add 1 to 2, you have a 50% increase.
When you subtract 1 from 3, you have a 33% decrease.

Simple math failure. No wonder DART can not balance its budget. :lol:

cowboyeagle05
Posts: 2801
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 08:45
Location: Dallas

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 26 Jan 2021 17:12

That's a PR/marketing and publicity staff member probably a intern level employee making that mistake. Lord knows we know DART has been pushing the same marketing angle since I was in high school. I remember when they would visit my school and teach us train safety. Their messaging hasn't changed and it shows. They for sure have the indicators of a slow government body as much as I support mass transit they really make it hard.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

User avatar
electricron
Posts: 365
Joined: 29 Oct 2016 11:07

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby electricron » 26 Jan 2021 18:49

cowboyeagle05 wrote:That's a PR/marketing and publicity staff member probably a intern level employee making that mistake. Lord knows we know DART has been pushing the same marketing angle since I was in high school. I remember when they would visit my school and teach us train safety. Their messaging hasn't changed and it shows. They for sure have the indicators of a slow government body as much as I support mass transit they really make it hard.

If per chance that marketing statistic was made decades ago, in the era pre SLRV, the math would have been correct. Adding 1 car to 3 LRVs at these extended platforms would be a 33% increase in capacity.
But somehow I believe the same mistake would have been made and they would have changed it to a wrong 25% increase in capacity. Am I being too picky?

User avatar
TNWE
Posts: 348
Joined: 03 May 2017 09:42

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby TNWE » 27 Jan 2021 10:57

cowboyeagle05 wrote:That's a PR/marketing and publicity staff member probably a intern level employee making that mistake. Lord knows we know DART has been pushing the same marketing angle since I was in high school. I remember when they would visit my school and teach us train safety. Their messaging hasn't changed and it shows. They for sure have the indicators of a slow government body as much as I support mass transit they really make it hard.

Every DART meeting I've attended has had some crank make some crazy assertion, and the DART staffer responding to the question somehow manages to always make things worse. Like, someone could claim that DART trains are unsafe because they don't have any phalanges installed, and the DART PR person would respond with "I can assure you, we do have phalanges installed on all our trains. We are working hard right now to install them on every train. We have just signed a contract with a supplier for 300 sets of phalanges"
instead of saying
"phalanges is just the medical term for 'fingers' - officer, please remove this insane person from the chamber"

It's a common misconception that the statement "we should run public agencies like a business" means the only thing that matters is profit. In reality, it's more about getting rid of an entire layer of bureaucracy dedicated to making random citizens feel like they have a say in big capital decisions. Have you ever noticed that DART projects never get *cheaper* as a result of citizen input? Spending months reworking D2 into a subway meant they could justify all sorts of extra spending on "community engagement," "impact studies," and the like. Same with the Silver Line betterments. As long as "the community" is showing up at meetings to demand expensive changes, their jobs are safe.

User avatar
Hannibal Lecter
Posts: 684
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 19:57

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 27 Jan 2021 12:11

^ Are you sure they weren't talking about flanges?

https://www.reliance-foundry.com/blog/s ... rence#gref

User avatar
TNWE
Posts: 348
Joined: 03 May 2017 09:42

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby TNWE » 27 Jan 2021 12:36

Hannibal Lecter wrote:^ Are you sure they weren't talking about flanges?

https://www.reliance-foundry.com/blog/s ... rence#gref

I was making a reference to the Friends finale, where Phoebe tries to get Rachel to not take the plane to Paris by saying "there are no phalanges on the plane!" and the other passengers hear and freak out.

User avatar
TNWE
Posts: 348
Joined: 03 May 2017 09:42

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby TNWE » 16 Mar 2021 11:25

Posted this in the D2 thread as well, but the City of Dallas has informed DART that they won't be able to fund their share of Streetcar operational costs. Based on the limited funding available, the proposed service pattern after April is 6:30 AM - 7 PM, Monday-Saturday, at a 40 minute frequency.

https://www.dart.org/about/board/boarda ... 9mar21.pdf

User avatar
Tucy
Posts: 1031
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 12:50

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Tucy » 16 Mar 2021 14:06

TNWE wrote:Posted this in the D2 thread as well, but the City of Dallas has informed DART that they won't be able to fund their share of Streetcar operational costs. Based on the limited funding available, the proposed service pattern after April is 6:30 AM - 7 PM, Monday-Saturday, at a 40 minute frequency.

https://www.dart.org/about/board/boarda ... 9mar21.pdf


Wow. Seriously, is it even worth bothering to run a streetcar with 40 minute frequencies? It will not provide any meaningful transportation service.

User avatar
Hannibal Lecter
Posts: 684
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 19:57

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 16 Mar 2021 14:22

Tucy wrote:It will not provide any meaningful transportation service.


So nothing has changed?

:)

User avatar
northsouth
Posts: 109
Joined: 26 Oct 2016 18:59

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 19 Mar 2021 19:11

Couldn't get pictures, but saw a train today with decals on the front ends of the cars commemorating/promoting the opening of Hidden Ridge station, April 9th. DART board presentation here: https://www.dart.org/about/board/boardagendas/adminitem8_23mar21.pdf

User avatar
Parker Road
Posts: 37
Joined: 01 Jun 2019 18:19
Location: Plano

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Parker Road » 29 Mar 2021 10:20

https://dartzoom.dart.org/docs/default- ... 3a27e527_4

DART recently released the draft plan for the DART Zoom redesigned bus network. The frequent routes they picked make sense, but it's staggering to see just how few of them there will be, even after the new network. Certainly pales in comparison to Houston or Austin, seeing as Dallas has around half the fleet of the former and is much larger than the latter.

It's shocking also to see all the new Golink zones, so all the low-ridership suburban buses can be moved to the new frequent city routes. Kind of makes you think Dallas should have approved money to buy more buses, instead of the D2 subway, which will affect far fewer people.

(Copied from the Discord as it may see more discussion here.)

User avatar
TNWE
Posts: 348
Joined: 03 May 2017 09:42

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby TNWE » 29 Mar 2021 10:48

Parker Road wrote:https://dartzoom.dart.org/docs/default-source/draft-network/report-on-draft-new-network-20210305-print-quality.pdf?sfvrsn=3a27e527_4

DART recently released the draft plan for the DART Zoom redesigned bus network. The frequent routes they picked make sense, but it's staggering to see just how few of them there will be, even after the new network. Certainly pales in comparison to Houston or Austin, seeing as Dallas has around half the fleet of the former and is much larger than the latter.

It's shocking also to see all the new Golink zones, so all the low-ridership suburban buses can be moved to the new frequent city routes. Kind of makes you think Dallas should have approved money to buy more buses, instead of the D2 subway, which will affect far fewer people.

(Copied from the Discord as it may see more discussion here.)


Not really surprising - DART hired a consultant known for putting ridership/frequency over coverage, and set the constraints that they weren't buying more buses. Even the early board briefings on the survey results basically handwaved the ~50% of responses favoring coverage over frequency. It's pretty clear that the outcome was pre-ordained, and all the fluff about the % increase of jobs accessible ignores the fact that most employers hire for skillsets and certifications, not whether or not your commute would be convenient via DART...

User avatar
Parker Road
Posts: 37
Joined: 01 Jun 2019 18:19
Location: Plano

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Parker Road » 29 Mar 2021 12:17

TNWE wrote:Not really surprising - DART ... set the constraints that they weren't buying more buses.

And that's the root of the issue with this plan. When DART's cut as much service as it has over the years, there isn't much the agency can do to provide good service for ridership or coverage. At some point they're going to have to use some brute force to deliver better service by, you know, delivering more service.

If Dallas cared about good transit at all, most of the frequent routes would have been designated for dedicated lanes (or better) service years ago. I trust this consultant; I hope that the Golink zones can be as effective as low-ridership fixed routes, and that ridership will increase on the few core routes proposed to an extent that better service becomes popular enough elsewhere.

But man, I didn't expect the contrast to be that drastic. I was hoping for a few more frequent routes at least, lol.

User avatar
TNWE
Posts: 348
Joined: 03 May 2017 09:42

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby TNWE » 29 Mar 2021 13:33

Parker Road wrote:
TNWE wrote:Not really surprising - DART ... set the constraints that they weren't buying more buses.

And that's the root of the issue with this plan. When DART's cut as much service as it has over the years, there isn't much the agency can do to provide good service for ridership or coverage. At some point they're going to have to use some brute force to deliver better service by, you know, delivering more service.

If Dallas cared about good transit at all, most of the frequent routes would have been designated for dedicated lanes (or better) service years ago. I trust this consultant; I hope that the Golink zones can be as effective as low-ridership fixed routes, and that ridership will increase on the few core routes proposed to an extent that better service becomes popular enough elsewhere.

But man, I didn't expect the contrast to be that drastic. I was hoping for a few more frequent routes at least, lol.


Even with the draft plan including special shuttles funded by outside entities like the Comet Cruiser and the DFW parking shuttle routes (that don't really count against DART's bus or driver capacity), it really is sad. And as much as I've maligned DART's previous strategy of pushing as many trips to LRT as possible (even if that means a bus connection on both ends), this plan seems to just overlay areas that already have 15 minute or better headways on LRT with a separate bus option at the same headway, while reducing a bunch of outlying LRT stations to pure Park and Ride with maybe 1 route at an hourly off-peak frequency.

Other than the proposed route 100 connecting Bachman to Park Lane at a 20 minute headway, there really aren't any frequent crosstown routes like the current route 402/403 buses that run from Garland to Las Colinas via Richardson, Addison, and Carrollton, with the two overlapped between 75 and 35 to effectively double frequency. Instead they have 42 different ways to get between Cityplace and Deep Ellum, or Downtown and Oak Cliff.

Also, given that the "laptop class" of worker is probably not going to be commuting as much or as regularly post-COVID, I wonder if they gave any consideration to a more balanced level of service throughout the day, as opposed to an office-hours centric model. My fear is that they're directing a lot of resources towards making sure the much smaller population of laptop-toting workers living in Bishop Arts or Uptown and still go into the office every day post-COVID have frequent rush-hour service to downtown, at the expense of folks in retail/service jobs out in the burbs having to deal with once an hour bus service to their shift that starts at noon and ends at 8 pm.

User avatar
Tucy
Posts: 1031
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 12:50

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Tucy » 29 Mar 2021 16:14

Parker Road wrote:
TNWE wrote:Not really surprising - DART ... set the constraints that they weren't buying more buses.

And that's the root of the issue with this plan. When DART's cut as much service as it has over the years, there isn't much the agency can do to provide good service for ridership or coverage. At some point they're going to have to use some brute force to deliver better service by, you know, delivering more service.

If Dallas cared about good transit at all, most of the frequent routes would have been designated for dedicated lanes (or better) service years ago. I trust this consultant; I hope that the Golink zones can be as effective as low-ridership fixed routes, and that ridership will increase on the few core routes proposed to an extent that better service becomes popular enough elsewhere.

But man, I didn't expect the contrast to be that drastic. I was hoping for a few more frequent routes at least, lol.


Indeed. But, instead, we want a short pointless subway, for the cost of which DART could probably purchase more than enough buses to provide good coverage AND service, with a nice bucket of money left over to maintain and operate those new buses.

User avatar
northsouth
Posts: 109
Joined: 26 Oct 2016 18:59

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 12 Apr 2021 20:51

Hidden Ridge Station opened for service today. As far as I can tell the Orange Line's schedule has barely been affected by the addition of the stop.

User avatar
tamtagon
Site Admin
Posts: 2030
Joined: 16 Oct 2016 12:04

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby tamtagon » 13 Apr 2021 06:25

...the trains travel a little faster between stops?

User avatar
Jbarn
Posts: 134
Joined: 05 Nov 2016 18:58

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Jbarn » 13 Apr 2021 13:14

....and still empty. The orange line to DFW has been a complete failure, and I am not sure why that is.

User avatar
Tucy
Posts: 1031
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 12:50

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Tucy » 13 Apr 2021 13:44

Average weekday DART ridership at the DFW station:

FY 2014: 922
FY 2015: 898
FY 2016: 968
FY 2017: 976
FY 2018: 929
FY 2019: 951
FY 2020: 768

Was not down as much as one might have expected. That may be an indication of how much this is utilized by airport employees as opposed to passengers.

User avatar
vman
Posts: 201
Joined: 24 Oct 2016 07:44

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby vman » 13 Apr 2021 13:59

Jbarn wrote:....and still empty. The orange line to DFW has been a complete failure, and I am not sure why that is.

I live in Las Colinas and rode the Orange Line when I worked in my company's Victory Park office almost three years ago. In the afternoon, it would get a pretty decent crowd on there all the way to the Northlake stop where I got off. However, it was very rare that I ever saw anyone that looked as if they were going to catch a flight at DFW. After almost a year of riding the Orange Line, I can recall four times that I saw someone with luggage going to or coming from DFW Airport.

User avatar
Jbarn
Posts: 134
Joined: 05 Nov 2016 18:58

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Jbarn » 13 Apr 2021 15:10

vman wrote:
Jbarn wrote:....and still empty. The orange line to DFW has been a complete failure, and I am not sure why that is.

I live in Las Colinas and rode the Orange Line when I worked in my company's Victory Park office almost three years ago. In the afternoon, it would get a pretty decent crowd on there all the way to the Northlake stop where I got off. However, it was very rare that I ever saw anyone that looked as if they were going to catch a flight at DFW. After almost a year of riding the Orange Line, I can recall four times that I saw someone with luggage going to or coming from DFW Airport.


I have ridden many times to and fro DFW on the orange line, and more often than not, I am one of about 5 people that gets on or off the train at the airport, even during what would have been considered prime travel times. There are typically more homeless on the train than there are passengers.
It is sad, as I think having a train that goes to the airport is a great asset for any city.
You would think that convention folks, tourists, etc....staying in or around downtown and not wanting to rent a car would find it very convenient. I think maybe DFW just has such an entrenched car culture that public transit will never be a viable option here.
Also, I think DART does a horrible job with marketing. Most folks I know in Dallas aren’t even aware you can take the train to the airport.

User avatar
Redblock
Posts: 214
Joined: 24 Nov 2016 11:15

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Redblock » 14 Apr 2021 09:27

Here is the Progressive Railroading report on the opening of DART's Hidden Valley station.

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/ ... ine--63196

User avatar
Redblock
Posts: 214
Joined: 24 Nov 2016 11:15

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Redblock » 28 Apr 2021 10:55

DART has a new President and CEO, she will take over on July 12.

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/da ... new-chief/

User avatar
MC_ScattCat
Posts: 116
Joined: 26 Jun 2019 16:12

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby MC_ScattCat » 06 May 2021 08:34

Anyone see the NTCOG presentation they gave to Frisco, Allen, McKinney, Plano about bus and rail service? I will try to find it, but it was interesting. I'm sure it won't happen as there are too many NIMBYs.

User avatar
Tivo_Kenevil
Posts: 1846
Joined: 20 Oct 2016 12:24

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 06 May 2021 09:09

I hope not. We don't need Dart serving Collin County. They already stink at serving Dallas County members ....

Also that presentation was it for the irving to celina corridor?... They're really trying to connect irving to celina..
Last edited by Tivo_Kenevil on 06 May 2021 10:57, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
The_Overdog
Posts: 563
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 14:55

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby The_Overdog » 06 May 2021 10:37


User avatar
MC_ScattCat
Posts: 116
Joined: 26 Jun 2019 16:12

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby MC_ScattCat » 06 May 2021 13:29

Yep that's it!

User avatar
electricron
Posts: 365
Joined: 29 Oct 2016 11:07

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby electricron » 07 May 2021 08:43

The_Overdog wrote:Is this the link?

https://www.nctcog.org/trans/plan/trans ... study-area

After reading the presentations for Irving to Frisco, this study is just modeling projected ridership along the line, and cost to benefit ratios at potential stations. If they follow the process all the way to the end, it would make an acceptable feasibility study for the FTA for starting an environmental review towards eventually getting federal grants.
it is just the first cog on a multi-teeth gear, but it is a cog needed for any trains to ever run to Frisco from Carrolton in the future.
Where and when the process will come to a halt is identifying where the local funding is going to come from. Unless Frisco joins DART or DCTA, or forms its' own transit agency, there will be no local funding for this project.

User avatar
northsouth
Posts: 109
Joined: 26 Oct 2016 18:59

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 07 Jul 2021 19:22

Saw the pair of cars with LED destination signs this morning, and for the first time I've seen, LBJ/Central (as the intermediate Orange Line terminus) was correctly shown as Orange Line instead of Red.

User avatar
northsouth
Posts: 109
Joined: 26 Oct 2016 18:59

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 12 Sep 2021 00:43

Noticed a change to this year's State Fair rail schedule. In previous years, they would run extra Green Line trains between Victory and Lawnview, turning around at the pocket tracks past each station. However, now they're instead running a loop service, going clockwise from Downtown to Fair Park and back through the yard. In the past, this was only done on Texas-OU day, additionally with southbound Green Line trains diverting through Union Station and the yard (this part isn't included in the normal State Fair schedule). The impetus for this change is probably the fact that platform extensions have been completed at Convention Center and Cedars stations; Texas-OU day trains would run three-car trains and wouldn't stop/open the doors at these two stations since they stuck out past the ends of the platforms. Now that that isn't an issue, I guess they figure a loop will be more effective than a double short-turn insert route.

User avatar
electricron
Posts: 365
Joined: 29 Oct 2016 11:07

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby electricron » 13 Sep 2021 09:19

northsouth wrote: However, now they're instead running a loop service, going clockwise from Downtown to Fair Park and back through the yard. The impetus for this change is probably the fact that platform extensions have been completed at Convention Center and Cedars stations; Texas-OU day trains would run three-car trains and wouldn't stop/open the doors at these two stations since they stuck out past the ends of the platforms. Now that that isn't an issue, I guess they figure a loop will be more effective than a double short-turn insert route.

A loop sort of makes sense because they do not have to turn the train around, with the driver/operator having to lock up one cab then walking to the other end of the train and starting up that other cab. The driver/operator just keeps running the train from the same cab in the loop.
Hopefully they identify these loop trains will special signs so passengers wishing to go beyond the loop will not get on them, and passengers wishing to get on a loop train can easily spot them.

cowboyeagle05
Posts: 2801
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 08:45
Location: Dallas

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 13 Sep 2021 10:01

I wish it made logistical sense to wrap the DART trains being used in the State Fair loop with a Texas-OU/State Fair wrap to make it a little more obvious.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

User avatar
TNWE
Posts: 348
Joined: 03 May 2017 09:42

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby TNWE » 14 Sep 2021 10:40

cowboyeagle05 wrote:I wish it made logistical sense to wrap the DART trains being used in the State Fair loop with a Texas-OU/State Fair wrap to make it a little more obvious.


Maybe after they get all the destination boards on a train car to show the same (correct) destination, they can tackle operating specific wrapped train cars on a specific route :lol:

cowboyeagle05
Posts: 2801
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 08:45
Location: Dallas

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 16 Sep 2021 10:04

Which is why I said wish. Hey at least a wrap doesn't require technology to work just having the same train working on the correct route which is hard enough to predict. Investment in digital signage seems to have been DARTs downfall for sure. Makes me wonder if they will ever feel the need to replace the advertising boards at their stations with digital signage as well so they can rotate ads and or make them all blink with line color when a train is arriving.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

User avatar
AMA
Posts: 5
Joined: 19 Jun 2021 14:29

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby AMA » 29 Sep 2021 11:29

The DART rail system is a joke.

User avatar
Cbdallas
Posts: 538
Joined: 29 Nov 2016 16:42

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Cbdallas » 29 Sep 2021 12:15

AMA wrote:The DART rail system is a joke.

What other similar systems are you comparing it to?

User avatar
AMA
Posts: 5
Joined: 19 Jun 2021 14:29

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby AMA » 30 Sep 2021 04:17

Cbdallas wrote:
AMA wrote:The DART rail system is a joke.

What other similar systems are you comparing it to?


To begin, the system was built on the top of former freight railroad right of ways instead of being designed to serve areas of density that require such service. It's not a city metro, which is what Dallas needs. It's a commuter system that serves the suburbs. Not to mention too many stops along the line making the time, added with the sheer size of the system, that much more inefficient. That kind of system should be heavy like the TexRail. Not light rail. Light rail is perfect as a city metro system. But alas, the system is incredibly inefficient and poorly designed.

cowboyeagle05
Posts: 2801
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 08:45
Location: Dallas

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 30 Sep 2021 11:05

Dallas tried to build a subway(heavy rail) but no one was willing back then. Light Rail Dallas was what we got cause the suburbs were willing to chip in for it. The question is when does Light Rail no longer help us and when does DART have to abandon its entire history as a suburban style transit org to a heavy rail urban one with better busing, street cars and subway trains. Many of us want that now but many people still think Dallas and the burbs are still single family, shopping center everyone should own a car type communities. Don't try to tell anyone in Garland or Plano that they are urban cities now. They will fight you tooth and nail that they are single family bedroom communities with room for a family of mom and dad with two kids playing on the lawn while dad cooks burgers and mom does the laundry. Based on home sales in the area that's what most people are buying into.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

User avatar
Tucy
Posts: 1031
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 12:50

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Tucy » 30 Sep 2021 12:16

AMA wrote:
Cbdallas wrote:
AMA wrote:The DART rail system is a joke.

What other similar systems are you comparing it to?


To begin, the system was built on the top of former freight railroad right of ways instead of being designed to serve areas of density that require such service. It's not a city metro, which is what Dallas needs. It's a commuter system that serves the suburbs. Not to mention too many stops along the line making the time, added with the sheer size of the system, that much more inefficient. That kind of system should be heavy like the TexRail. Not light rail. Light rail is perfect as a city metro system. But alas, the system is incredibly inefficient and poorly designed.


Not to mention the downtown-centered design in a city/metro where the jobs/activities were were not then and are even less now concentrated downtown. Was it really even designed to be efficient transportation or was it another one of Dallas' misbegotten efforts to provide life support for its downtown?

User avatar
The_Overdog
Posts: 563
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 14:55

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby The_Overdog » 30 Sep 2021 12:20

https://twitter.com/mdasilva1563/status/1436045051906437126/photo/1

This guy did a map of all DFW (and other cities) census tracts greater than 10k in population based on the 2020 census, so a loop around downtown is just becoming viable. You can see the red line starting to form some density, and you can see the Silver Line makes some sense.

Regarding the downtown loop D2, one could argue that a loop around Carrollton & Addison or a line from Garland to Addison would be a conceivable competitor for funding to D2.

It's sad to see that nothing to the west (even Irving is growing, but very isolated) is currently viable.

User avatar
THRILLHO
Posts: 212
Joined: 26 Oct 2016 21:20

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby THRILLHO » 30 Sep 2021 12:53

The_Overdog wrote:Regarding the downtown loop D2, one could argue that a loop around Carrollton & Addison or a line from Garland to Addison would be a conceivable competitor for funding to D2.

Is that not already how the silver line will function? Or am I misreading this

User avatar
The_Overdog
Posts: 563
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 14:55

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby The_Overdog » 30 Sep 2021 13:40

The Silver Line will form a line, so the loop would consist of a 2nd line to the north that forms a loop around and connects to the green line in DT Carrollton.

User avatar
Tucy
Posts: 1031
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 12:50

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Tucy » 30 Sep 2021 20:38

The_Overdog wrote:https://twitter.com/mdasilva1563/status/1436045051906437126/photo/1

This guy did a map of all DFW (and other cities) census tracts greater than 10k in population based on the 2020 census, so a loop around downtown is just becoming viable. [b]You can see the red line starting to form some density, and you can see the Silver Line makes some sense.[/b]

Regarding the downtown loop D2, one could argue that a loop around Carrollton & Addison or a line from Garland to Addison would be a conceivable competitor for funding to D2.

It's sad to see that nothing to the west (even Irving is growing, but very isolated) is currently viable.


There's really very little observable connection between the Red Line and formation of density on that map.

User avatar
electricron
Posts: 365
Joined: 29 Oct 2016 11:07

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby electricron » 01 Oct 2021 08:13

AMA wrote:To begin, the system was built on the top of former freight railroad right of ways instead of being designed to serve areas of density that require such service. It's not a city metro, which is what Dallas needs. It's a commuter system that serves the suburbs. Not to mention too many stops along the line making the time, added with the sheer size of the system, that much more inefficient. That kind of system should be heavy like the TexRail. Not light rail. Light rail is perfect as a city metro system. But alas, the system is incredibly inefficient and poorly designed.

Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART) gets you around Dallas, Texas, and 12 surrounding cities with modern public transit services and customer facilities tailored to make your trip fast, comfortable and economical. Our extensive network of DART Light Rail, Trinity Railway Express commuter rail, bus routes and paratransit services moves more than 220,000 passengers per day across our 700-square-mile service area.

In 1983, DART initially tried to pass a bonding referendum to fund building a metro style system, not a single city of the 13 cities, including Dallas, passed it.
FYI: No bonding authority = no money for capital projects = no trains.
It was not until 1988, and DART switching the trains to a light rail system, before cities passed a bonding referendum to fund building trains. All remaining 13 member cities passed it.
Bonding authority = money = trains.

Yes, the history is all there at Wiki..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Area_Rapid_Transit

And guess what, the latest 2020 census data is out.
Dallas 1,304,379
Plano 285,537
Irving 236,546
Garland 236,366
Carrolton 143,718
Richardson 119,469
Rowlett 69,765
Farmers Branch 63,420
University Park 25,278
Addison 18,113
Glenn Heights 14,772
Highland Park 8,959
Cockrell Hill 4,088
Sime math follows:
Population of suburban member cities subtotal = 1,226,031
Population of all member cities = 2,530,410
Suburban cities = 48.45%
Dallas = 51.55%
With almost half of the citizens living in suburban cities actually paying local taxes to build your transit system, you better be building a transit system that actually services them.
There are valid reasons why DART built transit all the way out to its suburbs.
Here are the two largest reasons: Politics and Money

Before the formation of DART in 1983, the Dallas Bus Transit System serviced only Dallas. No suburbs had public transit. Suburbs joining DART doubled the size of DART.

So the question you should be asking is, do you want trains at all or not? Because if DART stuck to your favorite metro style train system, there would be no trains at all because there would have been no money to build it.

Even to this date, the citizens of North Dallas and the City Council of Dallas would prefer that DART continue to build light rail lines. They are still smarting and objecting to FLIRT DMUs on the Silver Line (ex-Cotton Belt). In fact, it would have been far easier for DART to get the political support to build light rail vs regional rail on the Siler Line.

Past and present decisions on what to build where are not made in a vacuum. There is plenty of history available if you take the time to research it.

The Dallas city council prefers light rail, the suburbs city councils prefer light rail, the citizens of Dallas prefer light rail, the citizens of all the suburbs prefer light rail, just about everyone but a few posters on this web site prefers light rail, yet they continue to post other rail solutions are what is needed or will be better. Who do they think they are?
Last edited by electricron on 01 Oct 2021 12:42, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
The_Overdog
Posts: 563
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 14:55

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby The_Overdog » 01 Oct 2021 09:19

There's really very little observable connection between the Red Line and formation of density on that map.

Disagree, I mean if the Red Line isn't responsible, then why isn't there density along I30, I20, through Ft Worth, more along the DNT, the G Bush? What is the other driver? You can also see the Blue Line into Garland.

User avatar
Tucy
Posts: 1031
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 12:50

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Tucy » 01 Oct 2021 12:53

The_Overdog wrote:
There's really very little observable connection between the Red Line and formation of density on that map.

Disagree, I mean if the Red Line isn't responsible, then why isn't there density along I30, I20, through Ft Worth, more along the DNT, the G Bush? What is the other driver? You can also see the Blue Line into Garland.


One needs to look closely at where the stations are, not just where the rail line is. When you do that, it is clear there are very few of those census tracts about which one can say with a straight face that they are densely populated because of the red line. (And the same applies to the Blue Line to Garland.)

User avatar
The_Overdog
Posts: 563
Joined: 21 Oct 2016 14:55

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby The_Overdog » 01 Oct 2021 13:14

That didn't answer the question. What is the other driver in that specific area?

User avatar
electricron
Posts: 365
Joined: 29 Oct 2016 11:07

Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby electricron » 01 Oct 2021 16:00

Tucy wrote:One needs to look closely at where the stations are, not just where the rail line is. When you do that, it is clear there are very few of those census tracts about which one can say with a straight face that they are densely populated because of the red line. (And the same applies to the Blue Line to Garland.)

Before DART was even formed back in 1983, before one inch of light rail tracks were laid, the densest neighborhoods within the City of Dallas were the blocks and blocks of apartment complexes between North Central Expressway and Skillman Roads. Guess where DART placed the Red Line, to its west, and guess where DART placed the Blue Line, to its east.

Not many brand new apartments have been built nearby, but many have been rebuilt into larger complexes. It is difficult to arrive at how many more there are without somebody monitoring and keeping data on just that. But I am sure that there are more now than there were before.

Never-the-less, light rail stations were built near those complexes. I would not suggest light rail sold more of the rental units, or that the expansion of North Central had a larger effect, but there were already plenty of apartment complexes in the area as is.

Railroad corridors were the first major transportation links in Dallas. Major highways were built parallel to them, and some freeways were built where the railroads once were. These railroad corridors, especially the abandoned corridors, were, are, and will be the cheapest and easiest source of right-of-way for DART trains. So I strongly disagree that they are poor routing choices.

Every station location, built or not, were thoroughly studied during the DEIS and FEIS environmental processes. The political debate of which one would be better than others was settled 20 years ago. Projected ridership was not the only criteria used to settle that political debate, other things like neighborhood acceptance, traffic flows, availability of the land including price, and future plans for the area were considered. So there are few station locations I think should be changed, even after 20 years.

To be frank, there really are not that many high density residential neighborhoods in Dallas to place a train station. If we only placed them in very dense neighborhoods, DART 93 miles light rail system might have just 10 stations - even today.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

Login