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Silver Line

DPatel304
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Re: Silver Line

Postby DPatel304 » 19 Sep 2019 16:04

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Dart is more of bullet point than actually useful. We've got the longest train system in America..that's all I hear.

We can only hope the region densifies to the point where it becomes useful.


Well said, and it's summarizes my feelings on this Silver Line. It's just another bullet point so people in the suburbs can say they can easily get to the airport conveniently using DART. How many of these same people will actually end up using it? Who knows.

I'm hoping once this Silver Line is all said and done, DART can focus on expanding the system in better ways like they are with the D2.

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muncien
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Re: Silver Line

Postby muncien » 20 Sep 2019 08:52

Matt777 wrote:
DPatel304 wrote:
DART breaks ground on Silver Line along the old Cotton Belt corridor
The plan is to have the Silver Line operating in three years.

https://www.fox4news.com/news/dart-brea ... t-corridor

I had no idea we were so close to ground breaking on this project. Truthfully I had kinda shut out most information regarding this as I'm not fully in support of it, and I figured it was still going to be a ways off.


Yikes. They want to get this boondoggle operational quickly. Can't wait for the 20/20 feature story on "The Train to Nowhere."


DFW Airport (transfer station) - Cypress Waters - Downtown Carrollton (transfer station) - Addison Circle - UT Dallas - Cityline (transfer station), and East Plano are hardly 'nowhere'. These are significant business, residential, educational, and transfer stops.

The DART service area population tilts heavily to the north and putting a badly needed East/West line in the North area makes perfect sense. The LBJ corridor wouldn't be a bad option either, but frankly, it would serve fewer people and be much more costly to build.
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The_Overdog
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Re: Silver Line

Postby The_Overdog » 20 Sep 2019 10:11

UT Dallas - Cityline (transfer station), and East Plano are hardly 'nowhere'.


These stations were literally nowhere until really recently, as in just empty fields. Except for east Plano but that is still not a residential stop, it's low rise industrial built around truck traffic. There are apartments planned around it, but I think the rail line will complete first.

And really all were already well served by rail lines. 635 may have been more expensive, but it would have been a much better location for an east/west line.

On the other hand, since they were blank, most of them are being developed around walkabilty and connectivity, unlike if they had been built out 10-40 years ago.

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TNWE
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Re: Silver Line

Postby TNWE » 20 Sep 2019 11:27

Matt777 wrote:Yikes. They want to get this boondoggle operational quickly. Can't wait for the 20/20 feature story on "The Train to Nowhere."


Why don't you go tell the UTD student/staff population that you don't think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of "nowhere?". Never mind that DART has TWICE had to buy more buses and expand the scope of Route 883 (the UTD shuttle to Cityline) because of exploding ridership. UTD has a base of ridership that will use the transit services that exists TODAY, unlike certain posters here who live in the most transit-dense part of Dallas, but continually make excuses for why they don't actually use DART services, and think they're entitled to their own "bullet point" - a subway line that serves *no new riders*, but assuages the insecurity they feel when comparing Dallas to NYC or Chicago, I guess...

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f4shionablecha0s
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Re: Silver Line

Postby f4shionablecha0s » 24 Sep 2019 18:30

TNWE wrote:
Matt777 wrote:Yikes. They want to get this boondoggle operational quickly. Can't wait for the 20/20 feature story on "The Train to Nowhere."


Why don't you go tell the UTD student/staff population that you don't think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of "nowhere?". Never mind that DART has TWICE had to buy more buses and expand the scope of Route 883 (the UTD shuttle to Cityline) because of exploding ridership. UTD has a base of ridership that will use the transit services that exists TODAY, unlike certain posters here who live in the most transit-dense part of Dallas, but continually make excuses for why they don't actually use DART services, and think they're entitled to their own "bullet point" - a subway line that serves *no new riders*, but assuages the insecurity they feel when comparing Dallas to NYC or Chicago, I guess...

I don’t think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of nowhere. We can’t find the money to connect the Dallas Streetcar to the MATA but we’re wasting money serving cornfields in Plano? Absolutely ridiculous. If those UTD students wanted (semi)convenient rail access maybe they should have gone to SMU. This whole idea of people living anywhere and expecting transit to some to their doorstep is ridiculous. DART has atrocious ridership per mole and this “silver line” will make it even worse, no amount of bloviating from the dozens of people that might actually take the thing is going to change that.

DPatel304
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Re: Silver Line

Postby DPatel304 » 24 Sep 2019 19:00

TNWE wrote:Why don't you go tell the UTD student/staff population that you don't think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of "nowhere?". Never mind that DART has TWICE had to buy more buses and expand the scope of Route 883 (the UTD shuttle to Cityline) because of exploding ridership. UTD has a base of ridership that will use the transit services that exists TODAY, unlike certain posters here who live in the most transit-dense part of Dallas, but continually make excuses for why they don't actually use DART services, and think they're entitled to their own "bullet point" - a subway line that serves *no new riders*, but assuages the insecurity they feel when comparing Dallas to NYC or Chicago, I guess...


So, after the Silver Line is built, what, do you feel, is the next step for DART? This is why I struggle with the Silver Line because it just seems like a short sighted expansion. I get that people live in the suburbs and they all want rail, I'm just not sure how to feasibly provide it to them. Personally, I'd rather see way more investment into public transit in the urban core. Make it much easier to live a car-free lifestyle, and maybe ridership numbers will really start to pick up then when you have more people who solely rely on DART to get around. Use that additional revenue to slowly expand outward from Downtown, to the greater Downtown area, and so forth.

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quixomniac
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Re: Silver Line

Postby quixomniac » 24 Sep 2019 19:28

f4shionablecha0s wrote:
TNWE wrote:
Matt777 wrote:Yikes. They want to get this boondoggle operational quickly. Can't wait for the 20/20 feature story on "The Train to Nowhere."


Why don't you go tell the UTD student/staff population that you don't think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of "nowhere?". Never mind that DART has TWICE had to buy more buses and expand the scope of Route 883 (the UTD shuttle to Cityline) because of exploding ridership. UTD has a base of ridership that will use the transit services that exists TODAY, unlike certain posters here who live in the most transit-dense part of Dallas, but continually make excuses for why they don't actually use DART services, and think they're entitled to their own "bullet point" - a subway line that serves *no new riders*, but assuages the insecurity they feel when comparing Dallas to NYC or Chicago, I guess...

I don’t think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of nowhere. We can’t find the money to connect the Dallas Streetcar to the MATA but we’re wasting money serving cornfields in Plano? Absolutely ridiculous. If those UTD students wanted (semi)convenient rail access maybe they should have gone to SMU. This whole idea of people living anywhere and expecting transit to some to their doorstep is ridiculous. DART has atrocious ridership per mole and this “silver line” will make it even worse, no amount of bloviating from the dozens of people that might actually take the thing is going to change that.


SMU?! what a ridiculously uninformed comment. UTD is a public university, SMU is a private university, both serving completely different segments of the population, one just can't go to the other. SMU got lucky there is a train station nearby. SMU was never built out with a train station in mind. UNT Dallas was lucky they were nearby an expansion. Increased public transportation to universities will greatly help not only poor students, but international students who don't have money for cars. Rent prices have skyrocketed on apartments anywhere near the bus routes. You can criticize the Silver line without throwing people under the bus . pun definitely intended.

Secondly. Addison has been waiting on a train for years. If it didnt get one, Addison might have just left DART. And slowly but surely DART would fall apart if members started leaving instead of joining. Then Dart wouldnt have money to build D2 at all. The whole situation is like being stuck between a rock and a hard place.

And thirdly, go to George Bush Turnpike Station. Yes it was a field 10 years ago. Today it is home to State Farm, Raytheon among other things. Poorly designed i would add, but still the envy of many other wannabe TOD dart stations.

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Matt777
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Re: Silver Line

Postby Matt777 » 24 Sep 2019 21:32

TNWE wrote:
Matt777 wrote:Yikes. They want to get this boondoggle operational quickly. Can't wait for the 20/20 feature story on "The Train to Nowhere."


Why don't you go tell the UTD student/staff population that you don't think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of "nowhere?". Never mind that DART has TWICE had to buy more buses and expand the scope of Route 883 (the UTD shuttle to Cityline) because of exploding ridership. UTD has a base of ridership that will use the transit services that exists TODAY, unlike certain posters here who live in the most transit-dense part of Dallas, but continually make excuses for why they don't actually use DART services, and think they're entitled to their own "bullet point" - a subway line that serves *no new riders*, but assuages the insecurity they feel when comparing Dallas to NYC or Chicago, I guess...


I never said that UTD was in the middle of nowhere, so again, as usual, please stop putting words in my mouth. That reference is to the "Bridge to Nowhere" boondoggle in Alaska, and has been used ever since to discuss wildly expensive public projects that return little in results.

UTD is not in the middle of nowhere. However, it is in the middle of a very low density area called the North Dallas suburbs. That area of the region is not pedestrian friendly and is populated largely by people who would not even think about using public transportation. I attended and graduated from UTD, and I understand the bus line that takes students to nearby rail stations. I used it. The current setup of continuous bus service back and forth is probably better than the silver line train service which will be wayyyyyyyyy less frequent. If the bus service is full, add more buses easily! Additionally, the Silver Line Station will be ALMOST A MILE from the center of Campus, which will result in a long walk, or a bus to a train, to get to another train..... SMH.

The UTD station is probably the only station on this line that will generate decent passenger traffic and even the rosy estimates by DART (always overstated) were just a small increase in riders.

Not worth $1 billion.

That $1 billion could have been used to build TWENTY MILES of inner city streetcar lines connecting all of the urban areas of Central Dallas to DART stations, creating a transportation network that would be actually useful instead of what we have now which is largely useless to the majority of area residents, especially those in the inner city neighborhoods. That's inexcusable.

I am a huge proponent of public transportation, as my posts in this forum over the years can attest to. That's why I'm AGAINST the Silver Line which WILL be heralded as one of the most expensive pieces of useless crap ever built in Texas. It will be a highly publicized failure, and because of it we will probably have to kiss the hopes of any future smart rail expansion goodbye.

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muncien
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Re: Silver Line

Postby muncien » 25 Sep 2019 09:09

DPatel304 wrote:
TNWE wrote:Why don't you go tell the UTD student/staff population that you don't think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of "nowhere?". Never mind that DART has TWICE had to buy more buses and expand the scope of Route 883 (the UTD shuttle to Cityline) because of exploding ridership. UTD has a base of ridership that will use the transit services that exists TODAY, unlike certain posters here who live in the most transit-dense part of Dallas, but continually make excuses for why they don't actually use DART services, and think they're entitled to their own "bullet point" - a subway line that serves *no new riders*, but assuages the insecurity they feel when comparing Dallas to NYC or Chicago, I guess...


So, after the Silver Line is built, what, do you feel, is the next step for DART? This is why I struggle with the Silver Line because it just seems like a short sighted expansion. I get that people live in the suburbs and they all want rail, I'm just not sure how to feasibly provide it to them. Personally, I'd rather see way more investment into public transit in the urban core. Make it much easier to live a car-free lifestyle, and maybe ridership numbers will really start to pick up then when you have more people who solely rely on DART to get around. Use that additional revenue to slowly expand outward from Downtown, to the greater Downtown area, and so forth.


I understand the desire to make Dallas core the transit dense neighborhood that it should be... But DART's service are is not strictly the urban core. I have pointed this out numerous times... DART's service area and funding is massively spread out and it's job is to provide transit to that entire service area... not just the core. Perhaps Dallas needs its own urban transit agency to supplement DART, but I don't see the funding mechanism for that.

As for the future of the DART service area... I truly think commuter rail lines are better at serving the service area. LRT is good, but the exceedingly long times to navigate the service area via bus and LRT are grossly inefficient.
What I do see happening sooner rather than later is the bus system being disolved almost entirely. Partnerships between DART and rideshare/autonomous services will eventually reach a point that it is cheaper to supplement than maintaning a large, inefficient, unreliable bus fleet. But those rideshare/autonomous services will not take you from A-Z on public funds... Instead, they will take you to the nearest rail station > which takes you to the station closest to your end point > where another rideshare/autonomous vehicle is ready and waiting for you (if necessary) instead of waiting on the next scheduled bus 30 mins later, that has only three people on it.
Establishing such a coheasive rail network across the populated centers of the service area is necessary to make such a system work.
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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Silver Line

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 25 Sep 2019 09:39

muncien wrote:
DPatel304 wrote:
TNWE wrote:Why don't you go tell the UTD student/staff population that you don't think they deserve rail service because they live in the middle of "nowhere?". Never mind that DART has TWICE had to buy more buses and expand the scope of Route 883 (the UTD shuttle to Cityline) because of exploding ridership. UTD has a base of ridership that will use the transit services that exists TODAY, unlike certain posters here who live in the most transit-dense part of Dallas, but continually make excuses for why they don't actually use DART services, and think they're entitled to their own "bullet point" - a subway line that serves *no new riders*, but assuages the insecurity they feel when comparing Dallas to NYC or Chicago, I guess...


So, after the Silver Line is built, what, do you feel, is the next step for DART? This is why I struggle with the Silver Line because it just seems like a short sighted expansion. I get that people live in the suburbs and they all want rail, I'm just not sure how to feasibly provide it to them. Personally, I'd rather see way more investment into public transit in the urban core. Make it much easier to live a car-free lifestyle, and maybe ridership numbers will really start to pick up then when you have more people who solely rely on DART to get around. Use that additional revenue to slowly expand outward from Downtown, to the greater Downtown area, and so forth.


I understand the desire to make Dallas core the transit dense neighborhood that it should be... But DART's service are is not strictly the urban core. I have pointed this out numerous times... DART's service area and funding is massively spread out and it's job is to provide transit to that entire service area... not just the core. Perhaps Dallas needs its own urban transit agency to supplement DART, but I don't see the funding mechanism for that.

As for the future of the DART service area... I truly think commuter rail lines are better at serving the service area. LRT is good, but the exceedingly long times to navigate the service area via bus and LRT are grossly inefficient.
What I do see happening sooner rather than later is the bus system being disolved almost entirely. Partnerships between DART and rideshare/autonomous services will eventually reach a point that it is cheaper to supplement than maintaning a large, inefficient, unreliable bus fleet. But those rideshare/autonomous services will not take you from A-Z on public funds... Instead, they will take you to the nearest rail station > which takes you to the station closest to your end point > where another rideshare/autonomous vehicle is ready and waiting for you (if necessary) instead of waiting on the next scheduled bus 30 mins later, that has only three people on it.
Establishing such a coheasive rail network across the populated centers of the service area is necessary to make such a system work.


Do you really think cities will just leave people out to dry without any public transit? I hope not.

First Uber/Lyft are way more expensive than the bus.Until autonomous technology can FULLY supplement drivers; it's not even a viable option.

Secondly, even if autonomous vehicles become the norm. Do we really want to everyone to have their personal charriot? The purpose of public is to reduce congestion not exacerbate it. Uber and Lyft have already come out and stated they make congestion worse. Now you want more people on the roads?

Then there's people with disabilities. How do you accommodate for people who have wheelchairs or have assisted animals. As it stands right now, Uber and Lyft can reject anyone the driver can't accommodate including these people. Which by all accounts, routinely happens.

I think the future is what is happening in China. ARTs should be what cities should strive for.

https://theconversation.com/why-trackle ... ail-103690

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muncien
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Re: Silver Line

Postby muncien » 25 Sep 2019 09:55

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
Do you really think cities will just leave people out to dry without any public transit? I hope not.

First Uber/Lyft are way more expensive than the bus.Until autonomous technology can FULLY supplement drivers; it's not even a viable option.

Secondly, even if autonomous vehicles become the norm. Do we really want to everyone to have their personal charriot? The purpose of public is to reduce congestion not exacerbate it. Uber and Lyft have already come out and stated they make congestion worse. Now you want more people on the roads?

Then there's people with disabilities. How do you accommodate for people who have wheelchairs or have assisted animals. As it stands right now, Uber and Lyft can reject anyone the driver can't accommodate including these people. Which by all accounts, routinely happens.

I think the future is what is happening in China. ARTs should be what cities should strive for.

https://theconversation.com/why-trackle ... ail-103690


Perhaps I didn't write my thoughts out properly...

I'm not advocating people own their own autonomous vehicle. That is completely impractical. I suspect the rich may own their own vehicles in the future, but even more likely a white glove, A-Z, black car service will probably be used to keep them seperate from the 'undesirables'. lol

Also... My whole point was that using these on-demand services to facilitate the A to B and Y to Z parts of the trip, while rail pulls the heavy/dense passenger C to X portion, means you end up with far LESS vehicles on the roads... not more. That is why I continue to say that a viable rail system is necessary across the service area.

When the first and/or last leg of your trip is 'on-demand' by rideshare/autonomous vehicle, it's pick-up can be timed perfectly with the train schedule. So, instead of waiting for a bus, then waiting at the train stop after you get off the bus, then waiting at the other end for another bus, everything is timed based on the only fixed element (train schedule). Add the fact that the vehicle can pick you up at your door step, and the massive time savings, you now have a viable transportation alternative for the masses, and not just those who have no other choice.

How much does DART currently spend per passenger trip on a bus? Not just for operations, but including the actual capital expences for the bus fleet itself? Now, take that amount, work a deal with rideshare/autonomous fleet provider, and split the difference. People would be far more likely to spend $10 on their transportation via that route, then $6 for a DART day pass that takes three times longer to get where you want to go. It also becomes a much more viable alternative to personal vehicle ownership at that point.
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electricron
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Re: Silver Line

Postby electricron » 30 Sep 2019 02:31

DPatel304 wrote:So, after the Silver Line is built, what, do you feel, is the next step for DART? This is why I struggle with the Silver Line because it just seems like a short sighted expansion. I get that people live in the suburbs and they all want rail, I'm just not sure how to feasibly provide it to them. Personally, I'd rather see way more investment into public transit in the urban core. Make it much easier to live a car-free lifestyle, and maybe ridership numbers will really start to pick up then when you have more people who solely rely on DART to get around. Use that additional revenue to slowly expand outward from Downtown, to the greater Downtown area, and so forth.

Isn't that the formula DART started with since the mid 1990s, start in the inner city and build out to the suburbs? The Silver Line has miles of track within the city limits of Dallas. So even it is being served by the Silver Line.

When almost half of DART's sales tax revenues come from the suburbs, do not be surprise that the suburbs actually expect a minimum level of service.

Here's the latest sales tax revenues I can find tonight. Read page 54.
https://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/debtdocu ... Report.pdf
FY2017
Dallas $284,150,000 (50.1%)
Plano 79,462,000 (14.0%)
Irving 63,852,000 (11.3%)
Carrollton 35,454,000 (6.1%)
Richardson 34,800,000 (6.1%)
Garland 27,581,000 (4.9%)
Farmers Branch 13,861,000 (2.4%)
Addison 13,288,000 (2.3%)
Rowlett 6,665,000 (1.2%)
University Park 4,059,000 (0.7%)
Highland Park 3,368,000 (0.6%)
Glenn Heights 516,000 (0.1%)
Cockrell Hill 362,000 (0.1%)
Total $567,418,000 (100%)

Here are some other fun facts great for a discussion.
Red Line cities %DART = 50.1 + 6.1 + 14.0 = 70.2%
Blue Line cities %DART = 50.1 + 4.9 +1.2 = 56.2%
Green Line cities %DART = 50.1 +2.4 +6.1 = 58.6%
Orange Line cities %DART = 50.1 + 11.3 = 61.4%
Silver Line cities %DART = 11.3 + 6.1 + 2.3 + 50.1 + 6.1 + 14.0 = 89.9%
D2 Line cities %DART = 50.1%
And some wonder why the Silver Line has such great political support?
Will it ever achieve the same ridership as the D2 Line? Probably not.
But as with most things in this world, money talks.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby itsjrd1964 » 07 Nov 2019 12:38

This article, which focuses primarily on projects affecting Addison Airport, later brings up the start of plans being made by the city to look into further development along and near the upcoming DART Silver Line. Nothing concrete as of yet, but retail, a food hall, and residential were some of the ideas mentioned.

It will be interesting to see how much of the city's nearby land will eventually be affected, as the city's major fesivals and events (Kaboom Town, Oktoberfest, Taste Addison) take place on the acreage just to the north of the Addison Transit Center and the upcoming rail line.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... n-addison/

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muncien
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Re: Silver Line

Postby muncien » 08 Nov 2019 08:30

itsjrd1964 wrote:This article, which focuses primarily on projects affecting Addison Airport, later brings up the start of plans being made by the city to look into further development along and near the upcoming DART Silver Line. Nothing concrete as of yet, but retail, a food hall, and residential were some of the ideas mentioned.

It will be interesting to see how much of the city's nearby land will eventually be affected, as the city's major fesivals and events (Kaboom Town, Oktoberfest, Taste Addison) take place on the acreage just to the north of the Addison Transit Center and the upcoming rail line.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... n-addison/


This line will surely make attending one of these events far more appealing. Getting into and out of Addison on event nights is dreadful. lol
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exelone31
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Re: Silver Line

Postby exelone31 » 08 Nov 2019 08:52

No kidding, I live pretty close to the UTD station, so it would be neat to be able to hop on the train a couple stops and be in Downtown Addison, or Downtown Carrollton for that matter.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby DPatel304 » 08 Nov 2019 10:37

itsjrd1964 wrote:This article, which focuses primarily on projects affecting Addison Airport, later brings up the start of plans being made by the city to look into further development along and near the upcoming DART Silver Line. Nothing concrete as of yet, but retail, a food hall, and residential were some of the ideas mentioned.

It will be interesting to see how much of the city's nearby land will eventually be affected, as the city's major fesivals and events (Kaboom Town, Oktoberfest, Taste Addison) take place on the acreage just to the north of the Addison Transit Center and the upcoming rail line.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... n-addison/


I've been against this project since it was announced. However, I will say that it will certainly be interesting to see how the area around these stations is developed, like you said. The majority of DART rail stations are in areas that are not as desirable, which is why a lot of them are still underdeveloped to this day. That won't be the case with the Silver line though, as it is connecting some pretty popular parts of town (comparatively).

This might make me actually warm up to the Silver Line a bit just because it might end up having some pretty densely developed stations when it's all said and done, which is what the system needs overall.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 08 Nov 2019 22:36

muncien wrote:This line will surely make attending one of these events far more appealing. Getting into and out of Addison on event nights is dreadful. lol


I take you didn't learn from the Texas-OU debacle. Big events are the things that rail transit are the absolute worst at. They just don't scale. Prepare to stand around for hours.

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quixomniac
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Re: Silver Line

Postby quixomniac » 09 Nov 2019 20:16

Hannibal Lecter wrote:
muncien wrote:This line will surely make attending one of these events far more appealing. Getting into and out of Addison on event nights is dreadful. lol


I take you didn't learn from the Texas-OU debacle. Big events are the things that rail transit are the absolute worst at. They just don't scale. Prepare to stand around for hours.


What TX OU debacle? The very first one years ago?
Riding the DART to the Fair in general is pretty popular nowadays and very easy.
TX OU has come and gone every year since with no problem that Ive heard about.

Additionally it's very common for MAVS/STARS games
and for the other large event in Dallas, the St. Patrick's Parade.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 10 Nov 2019 16:18

What he means is when the event is over tons of people cram on the trains and it takes a long time to get on the train because transit like DART was really designed for a much smaller number of people to get on and off at different stops. It still happens at the Fair every night when the park closes and everyone heads to the DART station and has to wait for sometimes three-four trains to pass through to finally get on one home. When you are a twentysomething it's fine to cram on an overfilled DART train but when you are a slow walking senior at the fair with young kids shoving yourself on a packed train is not ideal but its reality.

TX/OU still overloads the trains every year but its honestly just a reality that can't be solved until you have teleport technology. You just do your best to provide the most multi-modal transit system that allows people to choose from a selection of methods and increase capacity where you can during rush periods.

Its kinda like when I laugh because everyone wants to park right in front of their retail store door and not have to walk through the whole parking lot. The physical reality we live in means there is only a certain amount of physical space there and since no retail store usually attracts one customer at a time people have to park further away.

Its why designing our entire road system around peak traffic periods is a pretty ridiculous endeavor and expectation by the general populous. We literally spend billions so that every North Texan who thinks it's realistic for them all to get off work from 5-8 pm to get home in 5 mins going 70-90 mph on the highway. Most voters refuse to think about it beyond their own needs so they blame policymakers and honestly physical laws we all have to live by for their struggle of sitting in traffic.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby tamtagon » 10 Nov 2019 17:17

I think this line will eventually exceed expectations. The North Dallas neighborhoods are happily vapid, rebuke change of any sort and will one day undergo a gentrification of the mindset while the build environment changes just a little. The trains will be full even after the line is double tracked with station leap-frog express trains.

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Re: Silver Line

Postby quixomniac » 10 Nov 2019 18:51

cowboyeagle05 wrote:What he means is when the event is over tons of people cram on the trains and it takes a long time to get on the train because transit like DART was really designed for a much smaller number of people to get on and off at different stops. It still happens at the Fair every night when the park closes and everyone heads to the DART station and has to wait for sometimes three-four trains to pass through to finally get on one home. When you are a twentysomething it's fine to cram on an overfilled DART train but when you are a slow walking senior at the fair with young kids shoving yourself on a packed train is not ideal but its reality.

TX/OU still overloads the trains every year but its honestly just a reality that can't be solved until you have teleport technology. You just do your best to provide the most multi-modal transit system that allows people to choose from a selection of methods and increase capacity where you can during rush periods.

Its kinda like when I laugh because everyone wants to park right in front of their retail store door and not have to walk through the whole parking lot. The physical reality we live in means there is only a certain amount of physical space there and since no retail store usually attracts one customer at a time people have to park further away.

Its why designing our entire road system around peak traffic periods is a pretty ridiculous endeavor and expectation by the general populous. We literally spend billions so that every North Texan who thinks it's realistic for them all to get off work from 5-8 pm to get home in 5 mins going 70-90 mph on the highway. Most voters refuse to think about it beyond their own needs so they blame policymakers and honestly physical laws we all have to live by for their struggle of sitting in traffic.


Thanks for a detailed response! I suppose we share some views, but sometimes its good to have baselines numbers to define what we are talking about.
Mavs Games are around 20k so lets say that's a medium event.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/197 ... ince-2006/

State Fair on weekends is 100k, so lets say thats a large event.
https://bigtex.com/about-us/daily-attendance/

For medium events where everyone leaves at the same time like mavs games or concerts, I think Dart Train works really well, AAC has lots of multimodal transportation options. Some people drive and park, some people take the train which i feel is a smooth experience. Options cater to different demographics and needs.
and most importantly, people who live there WALK!!!!! Walkable neighborhoods make a difference.

For large events 100k+, like the fair i think its highly unlikely any type of transportation short of teleportation will make a difference like you said. Specially if everyone insists on leaving at the same time thru funnels like parking lot exits and highway ramps. Honestly people need to learn to be manage their expectations reasonably, going to the fair for me was a breeze, train or car because I choose to leave early, or come on off days. I remember before the train, parking at the fair was a nightmare! expecting to park inside the gates was unlikely. This last time I parked about 20 ft from the admission gate. This would have never happened if the train didnt alleviate alot of the traffic around the fair. Which loops back to another of your points I agree with. all the options work together, there is no single solution.

That being said, the reason the train is not as effective as it could be is because the frequency can't be increased due to the choke point that is downtown dallas. D2 will hopefully help with that, and will further more allow for express trains that will help people who do not need to get off at every stop but maybe at a line terminus like George Bush on the red line.

So we don't get off topic, Addison's Fourth of July is an event of 500k, and extra LARGE event. How does anyone move 500,000 people? Of course the silver line isn't going to move all of them, but it should help alleviate traffic significantly. Will it still be bad? probably, but its not going to get worse I hope.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2013/07 ... fireworks/

"Most voters refuse to think about it beyond their own needs so they blame policymakers and honestly physical laws we all have to live by for their struggle of sitting in traffic" well put.

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The_Overdog
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Re: Silver Line

Postby The_Overdog » 11 Nov 2019 09:03

The lines waiting for large events are not odd due to trains or anything else. Football games invented tailgating to deal with the large crowds and a wide event arrival time with driving. Addison fireworks is no different. It'll probably be better since a large number of people will be going both north and south (assuming the connection in Carrollton to Dallas is good).

Also extending the lines to support 3 cars means I went to the Fair on a busy day and didn't have to wait for a 2nd train this year. It was crowded, but there was enough space.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Silver Line

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 11 Nov 2019 11:55

Prior to the Texas OU fiasco I posted the numbers here. Unfortunately that post was lost in the site crash. But the bottom line was that if you dedicated every piece of rolling stock that DART owned at the time to serving that one event, filled every car to theoretical capacity, and ran them through the station at some impossible rate like a train every 90 seconds, then to move 50,000 people (half the Cotton Bowl's capacity) it would take around 7 hours before the event to get everyone there and 7 hours after the event to get them home.

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tamtagon
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Re: Silver Line

Postby tamtagon » 11 Nov 2019 13:04

^Clearly we need more trains!


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